Do i need to be on HGH for life?

BCbabyB

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In the context of permanent damage, I do not know. In the context on temporary suppression, absolutely.

In this study, IGF-1 was constantly infused, and the effect on endogenous GH secretion was assessed [R].

Overall, GH concentrations were suppressed during the rhIGF-I infusion by 85±3%, mainly by attenuating spontaneous GH pulse amplitude (77±4% suppression).

The apparent GH pulse frequency was attenuated from 7.8±0.9 to 4.7±0.6 pulses/24h (P= 0.006).

IGF-1 is the primary feedback, and the mechanism is similar to what you see with the HPTA axis.

When there is enough Testosterone and Estrogen, your body has this mechanism in place to prevent you from making more.

The same thing happens with exogenous GH use.

When you administer exogenous GH, IGF-1 elevates.

When your body recognizes that IGF-1 is elevated, it starts to suppress GH pulse amplitude in a dose dependent manner.

What I don't know is if you were to take your GH in morning pre-cardio would your IGF-1 be low enough to allow you to receive your natural GH pulse during night? Just googling it says that half life is 20-30 minutes like the poster above me mentioned, but I am kind of uneducated on IGF-1 function, don't know how much it fluctuates or half life, ect.
 

BCbabyB

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Sorry for double post, and forgive me for the novel, but I did some more digging and found out a super relevant compilation of information. Here is a copypasta of a fantastic article written by user Decatest on /r/steroids, the man has experience beyond my reasoning and research skills to match:

lternate day hGH therapy prevents tolerance and yields improved long-term results.
Everyday injections drastically lower the body's sensitivity to its own endogenous GH pulses.

In the attached clinical study, the dose was doubled on an every-other-day (EOD) schedule, resulting in the same total dose per week between the two subgroups. Desensitization occurred in response to everyday dosing, unlike with the EOD protocol.

GH itself has a short half-life when injected IV—the optimal route of administration—but injecting it IM or subQ leads to slow, sustained release and elevation above baseline levels for 12–24 hours, which is the same as continual administration from the perspective of your receptors. This leads to dramatic target tissue desensitization that persists for well over a year.

For enhanced benefits, hGH administration for bodybuilding, muscle growth, fat burning, and antiaging purposes should adhere to every-other-day dosing to maximize results and prevent tolerance in target tissue receptors.

EOD dosing for reduced tolerance—maintaining heightened sensitivity to both exogenous hGH and the body's own endogenous production—has been shown to yield far better long-term results than everyday administration.

Prevention of Growth Deceleration after Withdrawal of Growth Hormone Therapy in Idiopathic Short Stature
Meir Lampit, Ze’ev Hochberg. The Journal of Clinical Endocrinology & Metabolism, Volume 87, Issue 8, 1 August 2002, Pages 3573–3577. Published 01 August 2002.

Abstract
The treatment of children with idiopathic short stature by daily injections of human GH (hGH) is followed after its withdrawal by a growth deceleration with normal serum GH and IGF-I levels.
The present study was designed to understand and prevent growth deceleration. We hypothesized that this phenomenon is due to tolerance at the target organ level, that tolerance develops in response to the unphysiological pharmacokinetics of daily-injected hGH, and that alternate day hGH therapy will prevent it.
Thirty-eight prepubertal children with idiopathic short stature, aged 3.3–9.0 yr, were studied. Their heights were less than −2 SD score, growth rate was above the 10th percentile for age, bone age was less than 75% of chronological age, and the stimulated serum GH concentration was greater than 10 μg/liter.
The children were matched for sex, height, and growth velocity SD score to receive daily or alternate day hGH at the same weekly dose of 6 mg/m2 for a period of 2 yr. The 1st and 2nd year mean growth velocities were 3.4 and 2.3 SD score for the daily therapy group and 3.0 and 2.0 SD score for the alternate day group, respectively (P = NS).
Over the initial 6 months after withdrawal of therapy, and growth velocity decelerated to a nadir of −3.9 SD score in the daily therapy group, whereas it decelerated in the alternate day group to only −0.2 SD score (P < 0.01).
Over the entire 2 yr off therapy the latter group maintained mean growth rates of −0.2 to −1.2 SD score, similar to their pretreatment velocities. The daily group recovered slowly to resume their mean pretreatment rate only on the fourth semiannual evaluation off therapy.
The cumulative 4-yr growth velocity (2 yr on and 2 yr off therapy) of the alternate day group was greater than that of the daily therapy group (mean, 0.9 vs. 0.3 SD score; P < 0.002). At the end of the 4-yr therapy period, the adult height prediction of the alternate day group was greater than that of the daily group by a mean 6.5 cm (P = 0.06).
Discussion
Posted by BMF2 on Qualitymuscle — A very thorough, well-controlled four-year study published in The Journal of Clinical Endocrinology & Metabolism clearly shows every other day (EOD) hGH injections to be much more beneficial in the long run to everyday injections.

Everyday injections seem to drastically lower your body's sensitivity to its own GH secretion. The study included children with idiopathic short stature, but the results can be extrapolated at least loosely to normal, non-deficient hGH individuals who may use hGH periodically for antiaging, bodybuilding, sports and health purposes.
 

BCbabyB

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2/3

38 children were divided into two groups:

Group I received daily hGH injections
Group II received alternate day hGH injections
It is important to note that the total weekly dosage of hGH was the same for both groups. Both groups received the hGH therapy contiguously for two years. Their natural growth was followed for an additional two years after hGH therapy ended.

They were all measured at three-month intervals during the four-year period—two years with hGH therapy and two years thereafter. Serum GH was measured by double antibody RIA kit.

During hGH therapy, both groups accelerated their growth substantially:

Group I receiving the daily hGH injections first and second year velocity was 3.4 and 2.3 SD.
Group II
receiving the alternate hGH inj. had 3.0 and 2.0 SD for first and second year, respectively.
Over the initial six months after withdrawal of therapy, growth velocity decelerated to a low nadir –3.9 SD score for the daily therapy group, whereas it decelerated in the alternate day group to only –0.2 SD score.

During the 2 years off therapy, the latter group taking EOD injections maintained growth rates of –0.2 to –1.2 SD score, which is similar to their SD score prior to the hGH treatment. The daily group also recovered but very slowly, on the fourth semiannual evaluation off therapy. The cumulative 4-year growth velocity—2 yrs on and 2 yrs off therapy—of the alternate day group was greater than that of the daily therapy group: mean, 0.9 vs. 0.3 SD score.

At the end of the 4-yr therapy period, the adult height prediction of the alternate day group was greater than that of the daily group by a mean of 6.5 cm—which is over 2.5*"* in height.
In even simpler English, to translate what it may mean to us is that using hGH everyday will only negligibly give better short-term results. Yet using alternate day hGH will give radically better long-term results and much better recovery. As the body may get back to homeostasis much faster.

The two groups got the same weekly total hGH dosage, so every other day hGH injections would be twice as many IU as if you used it every day. The researchers said the dose was of less importance than the schedule of the injections. Daily hGH therapy for 3 years caused subnormal growth persisting for 1.5 years (very bad).

It may be that the problem is not related to the levels of hGH or IGF-1 secretion but rather the body's decreased sensitivity to it. The interesting part is that the serum GH levels and serum IGF-I and IGF-binding protein remained unaffected, or relatively mutely affected.

Your body's endogenous secretion of GH resumes within days, even after long-term hGH therapy.
The researcher’s hypothesis is that the tolerance may be in the “GH signal transduction in selective target organs in response to the disappearance of the unique pulsatile pattern of serum GH during GH therapy. This is due to the fact that GH taken via SubQ injections does not match your body's own GH release schedule."

Daily SubQ administration of GH results in an unphysiological serum GH profile, with peak levels at 4h and a slow decline over the course of the following 12–24 h. This pattern can be regarded as continuous administration, rather than the body's natural physiological GH pulses with a frequency of about eight pulses per day.
Assuming that the withdrawal syndrome is related to tolerance that might have developed toward hGH or IGF-I, we tried to prevent it by alternate day treatment. Moreover, hGH doses used in therapy often stimulate IGF-I to supraphysiological serum levels, suggesting that target tissues IGF-I may also be higher than normal. The mechanism seems, therefore, to rest with hGH and IGF-I action at their target tissues. We now show that alternate day therapy with hGH in children with an intact GH-IGF-I axis prevents the withdrawal syndrome.”

Researchers link the analogy to another endocrine tolerance and withdrawal syndrome: “alternate day therapy with glucocorticosteroids prevents tolerance to that hormone to a substantial degree. Interestingly, glucocorticoid withdrawal syndrome can also occur while the hypothalamic-pituitary-adrenal axis is intact, indicating that tolerance to glucocorticoids has developed at the target organ level.”

An example of a good protocol could be:

hGH taken for 16 weeks or more at 8 IU every other day, split to 4 IU fasted immediately after waking and another 4 IU taken eight hours later. This approach is quite conservative, and may be optimal. The dose may be further split if desired to reduce the total IU injected at any one point in time.
Obviously, you may extend past four months, and take more IU per day. This approach goes with 8 IU EOD, so it is equivalent to those who would otherwise go with 4 IU ED, which is what most do. There is some controversy as to how many of these IU the body can utilize at once. There are many opinions and doctrines in endocrinology, bodybuilding, etc. Older individuals on hGH for life would not mind, as no rebound would affect them. Professional bodybuilders probably wouldn't mind as well.

This study targeted height in adolescents—not lean body mass in adult bodybuilders, or antiaging effects in middle-aged adults—so it's still a matter of extrapolation as to whether or not the results can be applied to these user subgroups. Bodybuilders aren't children, nor idiopathic hGH deficient and not aGHD.

Since the weekly dosages remain the same, as well as the duration of the hGH usage, just changing to the EOD protocol from the previous standard everyday injection protocol is worth it, and seems statistically a better bet than the everyday protocol.

TL;DR: Alternate day hGH therapy prevents tolerance and yields improved long-term results with the same weekly total IU administration.

Another post of his;

Anything over ~1.52.0 IU is best split into multiple injections, as that's viewed as the max that can be dosed without sides, and properly put to use at any given point in time.

A preliminary dosing schedule is outlined on the hGH Compound Description page in the Wiki. Another study is described in the wiki that incorporates similar findings of improved results seen via every-other-day dosing, in this instance, in small children ranging in ages from two to four.

CREDIT TO /u/DecaTest - ADMIN ON Reddit.com/r/steroids.
 

BCbabyB

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3/3

I also found this study done by a Japanese research team https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/10580755/ that had a group at 0.30iu/KG/DAY. Thats nearly 30IUs per day, and saw no more than an average of 700ishmg/ml serum IGF-1 concentration. They really didn't fuck around with dosage and got what was basically equivalent to a 5IU response. They did what we didn't have the money to try hahahahah.

One more for the guys, hate using rat studies and not really relevant to the thread topic, but its interesting:

GH improves spatial memory and reverses certain anabolic androgenic steroid-induced effects in intact rats
Abstract
GH has previously been shown to promote cognitive functions in GH-deficient rodents. In this study we report the effects of GH on learning and memory in intact rats pretreated with the anabolic androgenic steroid nandrolone.
Male Wistar rats received nandrolone decanoate (15 mg/kg) or peanut oil every third day for 3 weeks and were subsequently treated with recombinant human GH (1.0 IU/kg) or saline for 10 consecutive days. During the GH/saline treatment spatial learning and memory were tested in the Morris water maze (MWM). Also, plasma levels of IGF1 were assessed and the gene expression of the GH receptors (Ghr), Igf1 and Igf2, in hippocampus and frontal cortex was analyzed.
The results demonstrated a significant positive effect of GH on memory functions and increased gene expression of Igf1 in the hippocampus was found in the animals treated with GH. In addition, GH was demonstrated to increase the body weight gain and was able to attenuate the reduced body weight seen in nandrolone-treated animals.
In general, the rats treated with nandrolone alone did not exhibit any pronounced alteration in memory compared with controls in the MWM, and in many cases GH did not induce any alteration. Regarding target zone crossings, considered to be associated with spatial memory, the difference between GH- and steroid-treated animals was significant and administration of GH improved this parameter in the latter group. In conclusion, GH improves spatial memory in intact rats and can reverse effects induced by anabolic androgenic steroids.

EDIT LAST ONE:

One more MPMD Article where he sampled his IGF-1 on 3iu/day and got 500mg/ml IGF-1. 70% of what the members of the Japanese study got on 30IU/day. lol https://moreplatesmoredates.com/my-igf-1-level-on-3-iu-of-pharma-grade-gh/

Originally had this MPMD Article in here too https://moreplatesmoredates.com/the-most-effective-gh-dose-for-fat-loss-per-administration/
It basically says that your body can only utilize an extremely small amount at a time and then a refractory period is required to utilize the fat burning properties specifically, but since nobody is doing IV it isn't extremely relevant, and Decatest goes in to much more detail with his dosing protocol and the way that subcutaneous injections function would make this useless information, but possibly interesting to understand the fat burning mechanism better.

Conclusion:

MORE =/= BETTER . EOD
 
Last edited:

Neverwas

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Trusted Member
1/3

Sorry for double post, and forgive me for the novel, but I did some more digging and found out a super relevant compilation of information. Here is a copypasta of a fantastic article written by user Decatest on /r/steroids, the man has experience beyond my reasoning and research skills to match:


Everyday injections drastically lower the body's sensitivity to its own endogenous GH pulses.

In the attached clinical study, the dose was doubled on an every-other-day (EOD) schedule, resulting in the same total dose per week between the two subgroups. Desensitization occurred in response to everyday dosing, unlike with the EOD protocol.

GH itself has a short half-life when injected IV—the optimal route of administration—but injecting it IM or subQ leads to slow, sustained release and elevation above baseline levels for 12–24 hours, which is the same as continual administration from the perspective of your receptors. This leads to dramatic target tissue desensitization that persists for well over a year.

For enhanced benefits, hGH administration for bodybuilding, muscle growth, fat burning, and antiaging purposes should adhere to every-other-day dosing to maximize results and prevent tolerance in target tissue receptors.

EOD dosing for reduced tolerance—maintaining heightened sensitivity to both exogenous hGH and the body's own endogenous production—has been shown to yield far better long-term results than everyday administration.

Prevention of Growth Deceleration after Withdrawal of Growth Hormone Therapy in Idiopathic Short Stature
Meir Lampit, Ze’ev Hochberg. The Journal of Clinical Endocrinology & Metabolism, Volume 87, Issue 8, 1 August 2002, Pages 3573–3577. Published 01 August 2002.

Abstract

Discussion
Posted by BMF2 on Qualitymuscle — A very thorough, well-controlled four-year study published in The Journal of Clinical Endocrinology & Metabolism clearly shows every other day (EOD) hGH injections to be much more beneficial in the long run to everyday injections.

Everyday injections seem to drastically lower your body's sensitivity to its own GH secretion. The study included children with idiopathic short stature, but the results can be extrapolated at least loosely to normal, non-deficient hGH individuals who may use hGH periodically for antiaging, bodybuilding, sports and health purposes.
This was the basis of the group of guys I was collaborating with to switch to an EOD dosing and using IV administration. The thinking was that double the dose, injecting in a faster acting manner but doing so half as often would lead to greater changes with less suppression and it seemed also lower side effects (insulin sensitivity, carpel tunnel, etc) from not having GH levels constantly elevated. I still often go with an EOD schedule and just use it pre-workout before lifting heavy or doing cardio.

As discussed above I would strongly advise against IV administration as the peak and duration of action of GH/IGF-1 isn't drastically different with IV vs IM and with IV you run the risk that you are injecting a pathogen (bacteria or virus) directly into your venous system which then goes straight to your heart to your lungs and the rest of your arterial system. In the case of my friend it was a staph infection that got into his spine. He was likely not doing the best job of keeping everything sterile but even with good sterile technique you can end up with a mistake that introduces something you don't want with potential long term issues. With IM or SubQ you'd just get a local infection at the site of the injection in the worst case scenario.
 
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