My thoughts also. I think some of these studies can’t apply becayse we have no natural test levels. Now reducing the SHBG wield have merit I bet
Some TRT Experiments and Learnings
- Thread starter Oldguyjiujitsu
- Start date
My thoughts also. I think some of these studies can’t apply becayse we have no natural test levels. Now reducing the SHBG wield have merit I bet
Even on TRT [which I am at almost 69 yrs old] we can change SGBH in various ways as above and including -studies constantly show that low-carb diets decrease testosterone levels, whereas high-carb diets significantly increase the big T while they simultaneously decrease estrogen, cortisol, and SHBG. We won't get the T increase but rest is helpful..
High fiber diets are known for their testosterone lowering effects. They also increase SHBG which binds up testosterone making it unable to bind to the receptors, and they increase endotoxin release from the gut lining, which raises serotonin, suppresses dopamine, and also slightly reduces testosterone production.
Quite many of those meds in the list also increased SHBG levels, resulting in lowered free T.
These drugs for example statins, beta blockers, antifungals, antidepressants, and hair loss drugs.
----https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S096007600300195X ----Zinc lowers SGBH
----binge drinking impairs the P45 enzyme system of the liver which skyrockets SHBG.
---Studies have also shown that Fish Oils are anti-estrogenic and that they reduce SHBG. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/3573976
---
Coffee. Several studies on women showed that coffee raised SHBG. Finally, this was verified in a study on men as well. [12]
6. Green Tea. A couple of studies, admittedly on women, have shown that green tea increases SHBG levels. [13]
7. Lower Fat Diets and Fiber. One study on men showed that low fat diets increased SHBG, probably due to the fact that they increase insulin sensitivity. [14] So one simply way to likely raise your SHBG a little is to eat a low glycemic, low fat diet. that this way of eating will likely reverse any prediabetes or diabetes[type2] that you have and lower arterial plaque at the same time. A smiliar study echoed the same result and suggested that fiber may play a role as well. [15]
finally--lol--http://www.peaktestosterone.com/Low_SHBG.aspx
High fiber diets are known for their testosterone lowering effects. They also increase SHBG which binds up testosterone making it unable to bind to the receptors, and they increase endotoxin release from the gut lining, which raises serotonin, suppresses dopamine, and also slightly reduces testosterone production.
Quite many of those meds in the list also increased SHBG levels, resulting in lowered free T.
These drugs for example statins, beta blockers, antifungals, antidepressants, and hair loss drugs.
----https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S096007600300195X ----Zinc lowers SGBH
----binge drinking impairs the P45 enzyme system of the liver which skyrockets SHBG.
---Studies have also shown that Fish Oils are anti-estrogenic and that they reduce SHBG. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/3573976
---
Coffee. Several studies on women showed that coffee raised SHBG. Finally, this was verified in a study on men as well. [12]
6. Green Tea. A couple of studies, admittedly on women, have shown that green tea increases SHBG levels. [13]
7. Lower Fat Diets and Fiber. One study on men showed that low fat diets increased SHBG, probably due to the fact that they increase insulin sensitivity. [14] So one simply way to likely raise your SHBG a little is to eat a low glycemic, low fat diet. that this way of eating will likely reverse any prediabetes or diabetes[type2] that you have and lower arterial plaque at the same time. A smiliar study echoed the same result and suggested that fiber may play a role as well. [15]
finally--lol--http://www.peaktestosterone.com/Low_SHBG.aspx
All that stuff becomes fuzzy with exogenous T added to the picture. I've gone through about 5 Endo's plus other Docs on my TRT journey. Cut them all loose once they showed their ignorance on various aspects of the subject.
For example I had to explain and chart out how half lives work to demonstrate why injection frequency of better than 1 x every 2 weeks of Test e was preferable. This dude was the head Endo of a major metropolitan hospital and he was clueless - "Well I'm just going by the recommendations in the monograph"
I got off track there, more relevant was a different Endo who demanded that I get my T test done before 9 am
Dr - "highest concentration as the largest natural pulse comes after waking".
G1 - Uh hold on doc, didn't we just agree that the exo test I was using had shutdown all my natural production as it had brought me above my "normal" levels
Dr - Hmmm that's interesting, I hadn't thought of it that way but it says early am in my guide...
G1 - See ya!
Damn that guy should maybe read a bodybuilding forum. Even a noob knows better than that.
I had similar experiences with a couple doctors. I had posted them on CM, which is now lost I guess.
A couple stood out and I'll never forget lol..
1) being told the beauty of androgel is that it will raise your natural testosterone levels so we are putting you on it for 3 months and then you should be fine after as your levels will be up.
2) Doc saying my blood work for test must be done first thing in the am even though I had been on injectable for 3 months and continueously tested 4.2 test previous to the needle lol... Sorry bud, no natural test left in this guy to worry about.
3) testing naturally at 4.2 and being told they generally don't prescribe test to patients because they worry it will turn me into a monster lol..
Doctors could learn a LOT from body builders, however I believe they have policies stopping them from conversing with us to help further medicine because we clearly also use drugs in harmful ways
I know I've told my doctors many times I have so many symptoms that they have yet to determine the cause of that for the most part go away totally or get much better when I take 20mg of T3 a day. Its a night and day difference in my life and I get ZERO sides from the T3. Yet no doctor will prescribe me T3 because I've done many many thyroid tests which come back great. That being said, no doctor would dig into or talk to me about what the hell is T3 doing to my body thats making life liveable for me when I take it. Start digging there to figure out the real cause based on what T3 is doing in my body to mske it feel better.
Overall I have been fortunate. My GP may not have known everything but once I tested low T was very supportive about treating my basic needs. And my TRT Dr has not always agreed with all the directions I wanted to go but has giving me the space to run my little experiment as long as I do bloodwork every eight weeks.
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I think the best thing GP's can do is refer their patience to a specialist once they realize they have a patient who needs treatment in which there is a specialist for. This was my GP's downfall. He wanted to treat me for a condition which he wasn't well versed in
flexappeal
Moderator
@gondar1 I had to digest what you said here and it really made me think because I had never considered this. Even my men's clinic doc wanted AM blood draws. So the more important thing to consider then is where in the trough you're getting it done?
I can't quote a nice simple scientific resource that definitively proves or disproves this but I would welcome it either way if anyone can post one or anything that furthers the discussion.
Being keenly aware that the complexities of the HPTA are wildly beyond the simple terms that us meatheads discuss them in, here's what makes sense to me - I am wiling to go with the thought that in a healthy male with a balanced endocrine system the large pulse of T that comes around the time of awakening would provide the most predictable set of circumstances to give consistency to the a BW result. Also it makes some sense to test at what is expected to be the peak of the hormone to see what the potential output is and also to possibly disqualify you as a candidate for any unnecessary treatment.
But (if we accept the following statements to be true).....
If you are on TRT or a cycle you do not fit the "healthy and balanced" definition.
Exogenous T is seen by the various feedback loops as the real thing.
When the feedback loops and metering systems inside us sense that the level of T is sufficient, production of T is shut down as in - "That was a pretty heavy cycle, shut me down real hard, PCT may be rough bro"
So if you have more T floating around your system than your monitoring systems expect is needed there is no "large" morning pulse, if their is a pulse at all.
No pulses means that the advantage (if their really was one) of measuring at that time are gone.
Being that we know the blood levels fluctuate we need to take timing into consideration if we wish to achieve any consistency at all - if Jonny Rockhard takes his TRT 200mg once every two weeks (yuck btw) on Monday mornings the difference between a Tuesday morning draw (very high levels- 1day post shot) and a pre dose Monday morning draw (very low levels-14 days post shot) the differences would be very high and almost impossible to learn anything from.
Also -Here's a quote from a different conversation I'm having, the question was 'Quick question Gondar.... why would you want to pull bloods right at the trough prior to next pin as opposed to when the test is most active? '
A: "Most important reason to me is consistency, doing this over a course of some years and sticking to it provides much more reliable data than at "random" times. At the trough has been requested by every Dr I have seen that specified. It seems to be the industry standard and pretty much a standard in the bbing world as well, at least for those who have an understanding of the importance of timing and how much difference it makes in results.
I've had it explained to me by people who understand math much better than me - If you measure while at the brief peak, the variance over any period of time difference (+ or - minutes or hours) is kind of screwed up.
IOW results are more reliable (the graph is more flat) the further away from the peak you get.
Hope that makes sense, Just getting that consistency is enough for me and seeing as the Dr's ask for that if I stick to it then any data I have is more meaningful"
I do my BW consistently the day of my next shot so I always know my lowest level. (Not concerned about my peak)
My question, which I have no data for, is at your lowest T point is your E2 at its worst ration to T. By logic if E follows T then when T drops E also drops but a little after so when T hits the lowest point E is still not at its lowest point.
@gondar1 got an opinion? Others?
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My question, which I have no data for, is at your lowest T point is your E2 at its worst ration to T. By logic if E follows T then when T drops E also drops but a little after so when T hits the lowest point E is still not at its lowest point.
@gondar1 got an opinion? Others?
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flexappeal
Moderator
So to figure it out one of the variables would be whether an AI or Serm is being used and it's actions depending on specifically which one. Asin discussed below as that is my most familiar.
Some of the things to consider that may help someone work through their particular situation are below.
As I understand it, in Men-
A. T conversion to E2 is happening, or at least being monitored for the need, constantly (a system in flux?).
B. Natural E has a half life of 12-18 hrs .
C. Aromasin 1/2 life is 8-9 hrs(Terminal 1/2 life is 24? hrs) but max E suppression occurs at about 12 hrs and would return to baseline in 4-6 days
D. Test E(or C) peaks in about 24 hrs post inj
So if (D) peak Test is at HR 24 then considering (A) peak E2 would be at HR 39ish (C). That just may be enough info to make some educated decisions about dosing and BW timing etc, myself I use it to justify the reasoning behind taking Asin at the same time as my shot.
Simple enough right? Not really.
All that broish discussion seems to apply fairly well if taken and applied to the situation of a single dose of each but to really figure it out with multiple doses over a period of time and the resulting overlap of 1/2 lives and decay rates and conversion rates and dose size and depo size dietary effects and ugl variations and and and.....
You'd need to do a bunch of charting and graphing with all the actual figures to have a decent educated guess.
If only there was a spreadsheet or something that was capable of doing that if put into the right hands TLDR ; I dunno! LOL but if you inject with a frequency of better than 2x/week I bet it becomes small enough of a difference between peak and trough of E that it doesnt matter
Mini Experiment Update:
To get a "if needed" script for Arimidex my Dr wanted me to run it for 8 weeks and do BW to see how I reacted to it. I had not previously run arimidex.
Background:
at 100 mg test per week my E2 is 25pg/ml (my sweet spot)
at 110 mg test per week my E2 jumps up to 28pg/ml (this is good for many but makes me a little emotional). Also 3pg/ml increase (28-25) is a pretty big jump by just increasing 10mg of test so as indicated prior this is clearly my max test without an AI.
Mini experiment:
-pin 55mg test Sun and Wed (110mg test per week)
- 0.25 mg adex (1/2 a .5 pill every 7 days with the Sunday pin)
- Goal: drop E2 to 20-22 pg/ml (from 28-30)
Perceived Learning:
Next: I will start another TRT Boost to 200mg test per week right away. I have not decided if i will use arimidex or aromasin (leaning toward aromasin just to compare to arimidex). Also need to decide whether to use Test C or toying with the idea of using sustanon (the 100mg of test deco will equal my TRT dosage and the short esters would make up my boost so it would be quicker climb to peak, shorter overall experiment and then a little easier to come back to TRT...especially if i had an allergic reaction like last time) Comments or opinions?
Then primo over the summer.
To get a "if needed" script for Arimidex my Dr wanted me to run it for 8 weeks and do BW to see how I reacted to it. I had not previously run arimidex.
Background:
at 100 mg test per week my E2 is 25pg/ml (my sweet spot)
at 110 mg test per week my E2 jumps up to 28pg/ml (this is good for many but makes me a little emotional). Also 3pg/ml increase (28-25) is a pretty big jump by just increasing 10mg of test so as indicated prior this is clearly my max test without an AI.
Mini experiment:
-pin 55mg test Sun and Wed (110mg test per week)
- 0.25 mg adex (1/2 a .5 pill every 7 days with the Sunday pin)
- Goal: drop E2 to 20-22 pg/ml (from 28-30)
Perceived Learning:
- Works almost immediately. I took the pin and adex going to bed - would wake in the morning with crazy wood. assumption is that as the test spiked for the first 48 hours, the adex would prevent any measurable conversion to E2.
- if taking adex i would take same time as pins as the i believe the 1/2 life to be 2 days so you are supported though the test spike
- My brief experience with aromasin was very different. Aromasin was very subtle and there was no noticeable immediate impact. it seemed to take longer to work (which maybe a good thing over the course of a cycle)
- Adex usage continues to have a cumulative effect for approximately 4 weeks until i reached a new balance point. I felt awesome for the first 3 weeks but then i believe my E2 started to drop too low and remained there weeks 5-8.
- My wrist and elbow started to get ache (maybe coincidence) and the biggest impact was my mood. Over Christmas i had a bit of "grey - dark" outlook on life. I had chalked it up to being stressed and tired from work but within 5 days of stopping adex my relaxed nature returned (coincidence??)
- Using an AI, if you make changes to dosages less than every 4 weeks you might end up in a bit of a yo-yo trying to find the ideal dosage.
- Weeks 5-8 libido also dropped considerably
- I will confirm how much my E2 actually drop when i get BW results in two weeks. It feels like i am lower than 20-22pg/ml. i will also report any impact to lipids but there should not be with such a low dosage over a short period of time.
Next: I will start another TRT Boost to 200mg test per week right away. I have not decided if i will use arimidex or aromasin (leaning toward aromasin just to compare to arimidex). Also need to decide whether to use Test C or toying with the idea of using sustanon (the 100mg of test deco will equal my TRT dosage and the short esters would make up my boost so it would be quicker climb to peak, shorter overall experiment and then a little easier to come back to TRT...especially if i had an allergic reaction like last time) Comments or opinions?
Then primo over the summer.
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flexappeal
Moderator
Great log @Oldguyjiujitsu. The only thing I would add is it seems you aromatize pretty easy based on your numbers. I am also this way as I’ve gotten older and the last time I ran Sustanon it was terrible for aromatization so just be cautious. You may not have the same issue but I thought it’s worth a mention anyways.
One last thing I believe I read and agreed that it takes 5 weeks to reach a stasis point to make a proper accessment.
One last thing I believe I read and agreed that it takes 5 weeks to reach a stasis point to make a proper accessment.
I agree with your comments. I seem to aromatize pretty easy at this age but on a good note it seems like it only takes a pretty low dosage of an ai to control. My experience is it definitely takes 4 weeks to stabilize.
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