SHBG & Its Valuable Importance

[DeviousD]

Just a thought @DeviousD, is there any way that your low test could have been due to the nature of prop ester? I'm sure you did the math but maybe something happened that affected the metabolization?

I believe that the extremely low SHBG contributed to it being metabolized and excreted into the urine at a faster rate. This is supported by Dr. John Crisler, too bad he isn't around anymore, he was a TRT expert and had many amazing studies and developed treatment protocols that have changed how doctors treat their TRT patients.

 

[DeviousD]

So is Primo known to lower SHBG?

Research shows that all DHT derivative compounds do lead to a reduction in SHBG but I have yet to find out to what level Primo does.

 

[resilient1]

Also this. Vitamin D might lower SHBG

Vitamin D Supplements May Raise Sex Hormone Levels in Men

A small study suggests that vitamin D supplementation in men with normal testosterone levels is followed by increases in estradiol and reductions in sex-steroid-hormone-binding globulin.

www.medscape.com

And resveratrol may raise it

Resveratrol Increases Hepatic SHBG Expression Through Human Constitutive Androstane Receptor: A New Contribution to the French Paradox - PubMed

Sex hormone-binding globulin (SHBG) carries sex steroids in blood regulating their bioavailability. Red wine consumption increases plasma SHBG levels, and we have discovered that resveratrol, a polyphenol enriched in red wine, acts specifically through the human constitutive androstane receptor...

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

.

That's perfect, just the sort of compromise I can work with. lol I'm hitting up the liquor store for a couple bottles of Pinot Noir.

"Red wines that are dark in color and high in tannins have higher polyphenol content such as Tannat, Petite Sirah, Nebbiolo, and Cabernet Sauvignon. Although Pinot Noir is a thin-skinned grape, it has among the highest levels of polyphenols of all red grapes."

And, I will be cutting out the vitamin D for a couple weeks. Can get more than enough with my hourly walk in the morning.

I used to do deadlifts, now I walk...ughh.. no wonder everything is out of whack. Fuck Covid-19

 

[Nixter]

Yeah now that it's summer I'm going to drop the vit D and add resV until my next blood work

 

[ABMonkey]

Yeah now that it's summer I'm going to drop the vit D and add resV until my next blood work

Can you update when get bloods back?

If it raises your SHBG I may add it to my protocol.

 

[resilient1]

Well, I got the gear ;-) Now to put it to work. I will request bloods when I see my gp friday, but if my AI requirement drops I'll know it's working. SHBG is $25 out of pocket each test. If I don't have to spend the quid I will save it.

I should have read that Resveratrol link a little more closely... I could have just bought a damned bottle of the stuff. Ugh. Ah well, this is supposed to be a very nice red, so there's that.

I will find out if my suspicions are true, that my shbg is low. I'm 99.9% sure, I've never had to use such obscene doses of an AI. My trt dose is currently at the lowest it's been since starting trt.

 

[resilient1]

Not sure if dropping the vitamin D is really of any significance. It has far more benefits.

Serum Vitamin D and Sex Hormones Levels in Men and Women: The Multi-Ethnic Study of Atherosclerosis (MESA)

25-hydroxyvitamin D [25(OH)D] deficiency has been associated with low testosterone levels in men, but there are conflicting reports of its associations with sex hormones in women. Less is known about whether these associations are independent of adiposity ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Serum Vitamin D and Sex Hormones Levels in Men and Women: The Multi-Ethnic Study of Atherosclerosis (MESA)
Lower 25(OH)D concentrations were associated with lower SHBG levels and higher free testosterone levels in both men and women, and lower estradiol and higher DHEA levels in women.

Heart and Bone Damage From Low Vitamin D Tied to Declines in Sex Hormones - 11/15/2009

Researchers at Johns Hopkins are reporting what is believed to be the first conclusive evidence in men that the long-term ill effects of vitamin D deficiency are amplified by lower levels of the key sex hormone estrogen, but not testosterone

www.hopkinsmedicine.org

"Using the same measure of estrogen levels, men low in vitamin D were also at heightened risk of cardiovascular diseases, at 12 percent, compared to men with adequate levels of the vitamin"
"These results reinforce the message of how important proper quantities of vitamin D are to good bone health, and that a man’s risk of developing osteoporosis and heart disease is heavily weighted on the complex and combined interaction of how any such vitamin deficits interact with both their sex hormones, in particular, estrogen,”
" when researchers compared ratios of estrogen to SHBG levels, they found that rates of both diseases, especially osteopenia, the early stage of osteoporosis, were higher when both estrogen and vitamin D levels were depressed"

Serum Vitamin D and Sex Hormones Levels in Men and Women: The Multi-Ethnic Study of Atherosclerosis (MESA)

25-hydroxyvitamin D [25(OH)D] deficiency has been associated with low testosterone levels in men, but there are conflicting reports of its associations with sex hormones in women. Less is known about whether these associations are independent of adiposity ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Serum Vitamin D and Sex Hormones Levels in Men and Women: The Multi-Ethnic Study of Atherosclerosis (MESA)
In this large multi-ethnic study of men and women, we found that lower 25(OH)D concentrations were associated with lower SHBG and higher free T in both men and women, and lower E2 and higher DHEA in women independent of adiposity and lifestyle.

I've been taking 1000iu of vit D a day for years. I take it with my B complex b/c it improves absorption of those vitamins. I

 

[resilient1]

That's perfect, just the sort of compromise I can work with. lol I'm hitting up the liquor store for a couple bottles of Pinot Noir.

"Red wines that are dark in color and high in tannins have higher polyphenol content such as Tannat, Petite Sirah, Nebbiolo, and Cabernet Sauvignon. Although Pinot Noir is a thin-skinned grape, it has among the highest levels of polyphenols of all red grapes."

And, I will be cutting out the vitamin D for a couple weeks. Can get more than enough with my hourly walk in the morning.

I used to do deadlifts, now I walk...ughh.. no wonder everything is out of whack. Fuck Covid-19

There are a few issues with this study. Apparently, the dosage was 20,000iu/day. If you give someone enough of something you are more likely to get results. There were other issues as noted in the review of the article, small sample size, no direct measure of FT, only the conclusion that if vit D lowers shbg then it will result in higher FT. While I agree with that, and everything I've ever read or experienced confirms that, for whatever reason that was never properly tested. As mentioned above, I'll keep my modest vit D use.

 

[Nixter]

View attachment 5253

Well, I got the gear ;-) Now to put it to work. I will request bloods when I see my gp friday, but if my AI requirement drops I'll know it's working. SHBG is $25 out of pocket each test. If I don't have to spend the quid I will save it.

I should have read that Resveratrol link a little more closely... I could have just bought a damned bottle of the stuff. Ugh. Ah well, this is supposed to be a very nice red, so there's that.

I will find out if my suspicions are true, that my shbg is low. I'm 99.9% sure, I've never had to use such obscene doses of an AI. My trt dose is currently at the lowest it's been since starting trt.

While resV does exist in red wine, it doesnt have the concentration that a supplement does. Both the vit D and resV study i posted make VERY limited associations to SHBG levels so take with large grains of salt. I just figured it was worth a shot for me as I take 10,000iu/vit D due to low plasma levels yet I dont "feel" any difference whether I take it or not so might as well try dropping it until next bloods.

 

[DeviousD]

While resV does exist in red wine, it doesnt have the concentration that a supplement does. Both the vit D and resV study i posted make VERY limited associations to SHBG levels so take with large grains of salt. I just figured it was worth a shot for me as I take 10,000iu/vit D due to low plasma levels yet I dont "feel" any difference whether I take it or not so might as well try dropping it until next bloods.

I believe they have relevance as a contributing factor. Like for myself, taking a DHT derivative compound for an extended time, supplementing D3 with varying doses from 5000-8000ui/day, regulating my E2 with exemestane, as well as extended supraphysiological doses of test all contributed to me crashing my SHBG.

Found this research for exemestane: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2034036/
This study shows there is a drastic change in SHBG even at 2.5mg/day over an extended time.

There seem to be many contributing factors, even more that I haven't listed. It is just easy to do when you're already on the lower end of the acceptable range.

 

[Oldguyjiujitsu]

I don’t pay very much attention to SHGB on TRT to be honest but I do know when I add an AI it goes down significantly







The guy that runs this podcast is a bit annoying but the doctor sounds fairly reasonable.


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[DeviousD]

I don’t pay very much attention to SHGB on TRT to be honest but I do know when I add an AI it goes down significantly

Yes, this would be true with anastrozole & exemestane, I have found considerable research to solidify your experience. I have found a few different studies that state letrozole does not effect SHBG in the same way, the studies show that there is a non effect to a slight rising effect of SHBG when using letrozole.

 

[Nixter]

Ah so it's likely the AI crushed your SHBG and not the Primo? This makes sense as the liver needs estrogen to make SHBG, IIRC

 

[DeviousD]

Ah so it's likely the AI crushed your SHBG and not the Primo? This makes sense as the liver needs estrogen to make SHBG, IIRC

Absolutely likely the biggest influence on the reduction of the SHBG. After a lot of digging and research that is scientifically proven to have the biggest effect on the serum level, add in a few other minor factors and thats all it takes.

 

[Oldguyjiujitsu]

Absolutely likely the biggest influence on the reduction of the SHBG. After a lot of digging and research that is scientifically proven to have the biggest effect on the serum level, add in a few other minor factors and thats all it takes.

Were you taking an ai and primo at the same time? Why?


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[DeviousD]

Yes but not until I required it, I was also taking 350mg to 525mg of test/wk along with it.

 

[Jayz-23]

Hmmm Ive been trying to dial in TRT for almost 5 years now and have tried various ways and just cant seem to get it to work great.

My SHBG is and has been consistent at 10 nmol/L for the 5 years and on the initial lab before TRT.
My original proticol was 100mg/wk no Ai and labs came back mid range for total T and almost max for Free T, SHBG did increase to 15 as my E2 came up from Nil to 136 pmol/L.

I was put on Arimidex and it did bring it down and I think I do have better erections and libido with lower E2, but then I feel I put on weight for a strange reason. Ive heard that suppressing E2 can lower your metabolic rate and may explain why.

Ive been as high as 140mg/wk split in2 shots for TRT and have also blasted higher 300-600mg/wk from time to time.
I think im going to try going lower as in 90mg/wk split into 3 shots (m/w/f) and try no Arimidex and see how i feel in 2 months.
I feel i had better libido and erections 5 years ago pre TRT with crushed T and zero e2 levels but just was always tired, anxiety, depressed mood and and body composition was crap.

I think maybe also I need to look into possible causes of the very low SHBG, I do take a corticosteroid for asthma?? my blood glucose is mid range always, only other thing is I have low T4 like just in bottom of range, but T3 and TSH are good so I dont know.

Any ideas here would help !

 

[Goldenrod]

Ah so it's likely the AI crushed your SHBG and not the Primo? This makes sense as the liver needs estrogen to make SHBG, IIRC

my last blood tests - last month, showed testosterone in the top range of normal which is where I want it, free test was 260 and the normal range is 24-104, estrogen and prolactin in normal range and SHBG lower than normal. This is the first time my SHBG has been low, it was 10 with normal being 16-55. I am only taking 100-125 mg of test enanthate and Primo 150 mg per week. I don't take an AI or HCG. I assume it is related to the Primo but this is a guess.
My next blood tests will be in a few months and I'm not changing my dosages during that time so I will update at that time.
Although I don't think it is related, I have run small amounts of NPP or Deca over the past year for short periods when I was dealing with a few injuries.

Just more info to think about.

 

[resilient1]

I believe they have relevance as a contributing factor. Like for myself, taking a DHT derivative compound for an extended time, supplementing D3 with varying doses from 5000-8000ui/day, regulating my E2 with exemestane, as well as extended supraphysiological doses of test all contributed to me crashing my SHBG.

Found this research for exemestane: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2034036/
This study shows there is a drastic change in SHBG even at 2.5mg/day over an extended time.

There seem to be many contributing factors, even more that I haven't listed. It is just easy to do when you're already on the lower end of the acceptable range.

That makes perfect sense, but this is in post-menopausal women, who aren't producing the amount of estrogen as we would be. Our estrogen conversion is further pronounced as men, b/c of the biological feedback loop.

From my pharmacist: Logical, intuitive, and has been mostly mentioned previously. If SHBG is low, lots of FT, which is rife for aromatization. Since I'm hammering my aromatase with an AI, estro is just floating around with the FT, which only leaves excretion/natural dissipation. Adding in conclusions from the article, if aromatase is gutted, no estro to help produce shbg, which prolongs the current state. This is why I cut back my AI to 6.5mg, still a far higher average dose.

I have bloods on Monday, Would have preferred to have them yesterday, but I couldn't squeeze them in.

Taking an AI and a dht based compound seems like a double-whammy to shbg. Low estro, then added suppression of shbg via dht = lose lose.

 

[DeviousD]

Hmmm Ive been trying to dial in TRT for almost 5 years now and have tried various ways and just cant seem to get it to work great.

My SHBG is and has been consistent at 10 nmol/L for the 5 years and on the initial lab before TRT.
My original proticol was 100mg/wk no Ai and labs came back mid range for total T and almost max for Free T, SHBG did increase to 15 as my E2 came up from Nil to 136 pmol/L.

I was put on Arimidex and it did bring it down and I think I do have better erections and libido with lower E2, but then I feel I put on weight for a strange reason. Ive heard that suppressing E2 can lower your metabolic rate and may explain why.

Ive been as high as 140mg/wk split in2 shots for TRT and have also blasted higher 300-600mg/wk from time to time.
I think im going to try going lower as in 90mg/wk split into 3 shots (m/w/f) and try no Arimidex and see how i feel in 2 months.
I feel i had better libido and erections 5 years ago pre TRT with crushed T and zero e2 levels but just was always tired, anxiety, depressed mood and and body composition was crap.

I think maybe also I need to look into possible causes of the very low SHBG, I do take a corticosteroid for asthma?? my blood glucose is mid range always, only other thing is I have low T4 like just in bottom of range, but T3 and TSH are good so I dont know.

Any ideas here would help !

I absolutely think you're on the right track with your thinking now, the smaller more frequent shots are shown to allow serum SHBG to rise coupled with the cessation of the AI should definitely help you feel better. When I figured out my issue I was already at the end of my run anyway so I had switched back to my TRT doses with test E and I started doing 35mg of test E EOD with zero AI and I was feeling substantially better within just a days, muscles fuller and actually feeling strong and hardened compared to how I was.

I like you, experience better libido & stronger erections as well with lower E2 but I am doing just fine without one now that I am back to TRT. I can feel that it is a bit higher than I normally like but I am going to stay the course and continue to evaluate how i'm feeling. I have been on this protocol for five & a half weeks as of today and feeling fantastic. I am going to wait a couple more weeks before blood work as my cholesterol & lipid levels were a bit off from the long blast and I want to make sure they're back in range too.

Definitely do some research and ask your doctor about possible causes of that baseline prior to TRT low SHBG!