The Effects of High-Protein Diets on Kidney Health and Longevity

No study or facts to site, just someone I listen to when we speak because he reads and tries to understand bodybuilding (food, rest, PED). He competed, did the big cycles, now isn't on anything, and tried different diets.
He said to me a long time ago he is convinced a lot of people are dropping dead because of the amount of protein they are eating. Don't take that comment wrong - take 4 grams of gear and a couple orals for 6 months and there is a good chance your organs are going to tell you to fuck off too but the protein plays a factor is the message.
Is he/the above correct, I don't know but like I said when he says something I give it some thought.
 
I did a bunch of reading last night and do I think high protein forever is a good idea as we age, likely not. But in healthy kidneys they have no proof that it will damage it long term, speculation but no proof.

An increase in Egfr then a decline back to baseline is no proof of future damage.

One could surmise that an increase in eGFR is the kidneys functioning better and when it returns to baseline its because the kidneys have over time became more efficient and able to process the same material without the increased pressures or flow?
 
Sorbate said:
I did a bunch of reading last night and do I think high protein forever is a good idea as we age, likely not. But in healthy kidneys they have no proof that it will damage it long term, speculation but no proof.

An increase in Egfr (Estimated glomular filtration rate), then a decline back to baseline is no proof of future damage.

One could surmise that an increase in eGFR is the kidneys functioning better and when it returns to baseline its because the kidneys have over time became more efficient and able to process the same material without the increased pressures or flow?
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UMM. Grr. I really WISH that I agreed, because that's what I thought the first read through, but then I re-read it a couple times. I wish it were true, because all I eat on my diet is meat, eggs, fish butter and cheese, but I'm not sure you're right.

It's not just Egfr (Estimated gfr) they're concerned with, it's GFR they're measuring directly, which is seldom measured in routine tests, probably because it's invasive and expensive and Egfr is cheap and easy with a blood test.

So best as I can make sense of things that spark the concern of these scientists and doctors, is that measured GFR is significantly increasing, because the blood pressure inside the glomerulus is increasing with increasing protein intake, which leads to increased filtration in the short term, but increased fibrosis (damage) in the long term.

Now maybe the EGFR is returning to normal in cohort studies because of a homeostatic mechanism, (I hope and suspect it is) but .... I don't know, and they didn't theorize that in the paper.

I really hope that the gfr goes down in the long term, because the body is adapting and lowering glomular blood pressure, because increased systemic blood pressure DOES lead to kidney damage long term, we know this for a fact, epidemiologically, so increased blood pressure inside the glomuerulus in the kidneys, is not a good sign.

Maybe the EGFR is just returning to normal because the pressure is going down as the body adapts, maybe the EGFR is going down because it is signalling early stage kidney damage?

I'm not sure, and I don't think the writers of the paper are sure, but I think with the (basically carnivore) diet I'm on, I'm going to start by tracking my macro's, not just total carbs, then maybe trying to replace some of the protein in my diet with fats, and also maybe getting my EGFR checked twice a year instead of just once, to catch any warning signs early.

The one cohort of people that has eaten high protein for decades is Bodybuilders, and they do have a higher incidence of early kidney failure from what I've seen, but they also use gear, so is it the high blood pressure from gear?, the high intraglomular pressure from high dietary protein?, or both? or maybe neither?, maybe it's the orals. I do realize, that I am among the first large group of people to be using the carnivore/keto diet as a lifestyle, so .... I am taking a risk.

I really don't want kidney failure, it's a shitty way to die, it takes years on dialysis, as one major vascular access point after another blows out, knowing that with each destroyed vein/artery point you get one step closer to being sent home to die, waiting in vain for a kidney transplant that's not going to come because they only go to very young people.... Yeah..... Fuck that's a shitty way to go.
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I believe firmly that eating too much of anything is bad for you. If you eat more protien than your body actually uses then your over doing it and will suffer a reaction in some form. Like carbs whem you overdue them you get fat, insulin spikes etc. Too much fats give you issues aswell, blah blah blah.
For me about 1g of protien per pound of bodywieght per day works well. Seems to be optimal. No excess stress on the body it seems and sufficient to build and retain muscle even on mild to medium amounts of gear.
And yes ive tried higher ratios and lower ones over the years to know the difference.
Allways beware of bro science and diet fads.
 
deeknows said:
For me about 1g of protien per pound of bodywieght per day works well.
Allways beware of bro science and diet fads.
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One gram of protein per pound of bodyweight is bro-science, it's the bodybuilders ratio.

The paper says for kidney health, you want about 0.27 (ideal) to 0.38 (max) grams of protein per pound of ideal bodyweight.
 
Longevity and bodybuilding aren't in the same category though and if you wanted to be healthy longer you would simply do periodic bulking phases followed by cut amd maintenance so really your over doing protein a small part of the year then lowering it for maintenance. That's putting on healthy muscle and strength and living to an old age. Bodybuilding for serious mass and staying 225 to 250lb plus year round isn't really in the longevity realm. After 65 I'm sure any dude will look great and be strong and fit and healthy sitting at like 175 o 195lbs. I'm just shooting out random numbers here but I'd guess it's something in that direction
 
BobTbay said:
One gram of protein per pound of bodyweight is bro-science, it's the bodybuilders ratio.

The paper says for kidney health, you want about 0.27 (ideal) to 0.38 (max) grams of protein per pound of ideal bodyweight.
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Actually bodybuilders rave 1.5 per pound and up, but sure.
I just watched a video on youtube recent from some science nerd who studies cadavers at a morge saying 1g per lb is best for athletes. Who the hell knows whats legit.
Healthy and optimal are 2 different things for me. I like to feel "optimal". Trusting the "science" is complete bs. Just because its in a study doesnt make it legit. Test yourself and find your personal truth of whats best for you.
 
BobTbay said:
UMM. Grr. I really WISH that I agreed, because that's what I thought the first read through, but then I re-read it a couple times. I wish it were true, because all I eat on my diet is meat, eggs, fish butter and cheese, but I'm not sure you're right.

It's not just Egfr (Estimated gfr) they're concerned with, it's GFR they're measuring directly, which is seldom measured in routine tests, probably because it's invasive and expensive and Egfr is cheap and easy with a blood test.

So best as I can make sense of things that spark the concern of these scientists and doctors, is that measured GFR is significantly increasing, because the blood pressure inside the glomerulus is increasing with increasing protein intake, which leads to increased filtration in the short term, but increased fibrosis (damage) in the long term.

Now maybe the EGFR is returning to normal in cohort studies because of a homeostatic mechanism, (I hope and suspect it is) but .... I don't know, and they didn't theorize that in the paper.

I really hope that the gfr goes down in the long term, because the body is adapting and lowering glomular blood pressure, because increased systemic blood pressure DOES lead to kidney damage long term, we know this for a fact, epidemiologically, so increased blood pressure inside the glomuerulus in the kidneys, is not a good sign.

Maybe the EGFR is just returning to normal because the pressure is going down as the body adapts, maybe the EGFR is going down because it is signalling early stage kidney damage?

I'm not sure, and I don't think the writers of the paper are sure, but I think with the (basically carnivore) diet I'm on, I'm going to start by tracking my macro's, not just total carbs, then maybe trying to replace some of the protein in my diet with fats, and also maybe getting my EGFR checked twice a year instead of just once, to catch any warning signs early.

The one cohort of people that has eaten high protein for decades is Bodybuilders, and they do have a higher incidence of early kidney failure from what I've seen, but they also use gear, so is it the high blood pressure from gear?, the high intraglomular pressure from high dietary protein?, or both? or maybe neither?, maybe it's the orals. I do realize, that I am among the first large group of people to be using the carnivore/keto diet as a lifestyle, so .... I am taking a risk.

I really don't want kidney failure, it's a shitty way to die, it takes years on dialysis, as one major vascular access point after another blows out, knowing that with each destroyed vein/artery point you get one step closer to being sent home to die, waiting in vain for a kidney transplant that's not going to come because they only go to very young people.... Yeah..... Fuck that's a shitty way to go.
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Sorry I meant to say GFR. Anyhow even they stated it lowered over time. Now they didn’t show any data to show that it was lower than baseline.

They kept pumping veggie protein, so I wonder who paid for the study?

Anyhow my whole life I have eaten a lot of meat, my dad owned a meat shop, I own one, my kidneys are just fine.

Now I know I made a post about having very minimal protein leakage, but when I got that blood test done I had hammered legs very hard a couple days before and was still hobbling around, lol. It is normal to leak s tiny amount of protein, up to 14, I was a 3.

I have tested multiple times since with strips and have had no issues, but it is unfortunate the strips don’t measure very well under 5.

I am going to get blood work done in January and this time no training the week before the blood work to see what happens.

I will get back to everyone to see what happens.

As a note there was about 4 years I ate almost 600 grams of protein a day, lots of milk with protein powder.


Now I know if I eat a very high protein meal, or powder, I will pee a feww times more than normal, and I bet that is my kidneys processing the protien, but that has happened forever, since I was 20 so nothing has changed there.

I don’t think that one meta study using short term studies can really come to the conclusions they have. We need a 5 year study On healthy people.
 
BobTbay said:
One gram of protein per pound of bodyweight is bro-science, it's the bodybuilders ratio.

The paper says for kidney health, you want about 0.27 (ideal) to 0.38 (max) grams of protein per pound of ideal bodyweight.
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I would shrink to nothing on that amount of protein. Plus I don’t know how I could only eat that little. My eggs in the morning would have me hit that number, lol.
 
Sorbate said:
I would shrink to nothing on that amount of protein. Plus I don’t know how I could only eat that little. My eggs in the morning would have me hit that number, lol.
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Yep, say goodbye to everything i have worked for.
I eat 325 grams now but it used to be closer to 400. I guess, put that on the list of all the other things thats gonna kill me.
 
Ahh Crap I hope the study is wrong and sorbate is right.

I calculated my protein intake and it's between 350-475 grams on non-fasting days.
 
BobTbay said:
Ahh Crap I hope the study is wrong and sorbate is right.

I calculated my protein intake and it's between 350-475 grams on non-fasting days.
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if you need to take insulin, I would watch my intake, only because diabetes is hard on the kidneys.

I eat about 300 gms of protein a day, but I am only 175 lbs right now (I am am pretty lean right now, likely 13% bodyfat)

I don't think we can take one meta study that has no long term outcomes where they just predicted what "may" happen.
 
I don't think high protein diets are healthy either, and it seems like research in longevity say similar things, specifically in chronic MTOR stimulation

I don't really see the reason for eating a high protein diet unless you're bodybuilding. The amino acids will just get converted to glucose if you eat too much.
 
Sorbate said:
if you need to take insulin, I would watch my intake, only because diabetes is hard on the kidneys.

I eat about 300 gms of protein a day, but I am only 175 lbs right now (I am am pretty lean right now, likely 13% bodyfat)

I don't think we can take one meta study that has no long term outcomes where they just predicted what "may" happen.
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Nope, no insulin, my blood sugar control is now wonderful, with the no carb diet. Also, I know that diabetes can be hard on the kidneys, but isn't that because most diabetics don't control their blood sugars well, and eat crap? I got scared and stopped fucking around. My last HbA1c was 4.8 and that's a little high for me.

Also my numbers also don't reflect the fact I fast 4 days a week now.

Still, I might try to get more fat, and less protein.
 
BobTbay said:
Nope, no insulin, my blood sugar control is now wonderful, with the no carb diet. Also, I know that diabetes can be hard on the kidneys, but isn't that because most diabetics don't control their blood sugars well, and eat crap? I got scared and stopped fucking around. My last HbA1c was 4.8 and that's a little high for me.

Also my numbers also don't reflect the fact I fast 4 days a week now.

Still, I might try to get more fat, and less protein.
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Congrats on the loss in weight. Going to a diet like yours and only eating 3 days a week takes a lot of will power.
People with diabetes are prone to BP issues which lead to kidney issues. Too much info to put into a short paragraph.
Both are factors.
 
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