TRT trough - how low is normal?

El Ronero

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Feel great after injection, but after about 5 days I can definitely feel it getting low again.

My understanding is the goal is to be around 26/28 NMOL/L after injection. But how low is too low in the trough?
 
You could pin more frequently, that's an easy fix. E3.5 or EOD.
ah so there's no magic formula that says if you're 12nmol on day 7, you must be 24nmol on day one -- with one shot per week.

guess it's never that easy.
 
ah so there's no magic formula that says if you're 12nmol on day 7, you must be 24nmol on day one -- with one shot per week.

guess it's never that easy.
Nope not at all. We all metabolize at different rates as well also.

Go on steroidplotter and put all the info in for your test. Itll give you an idea on how the bell curve looks in regards to the increase then decline with each injection. Id suggest splitting your dose and pinning 2x a week
 
Feel great after injection, but after about 5 days I can definitely feel it getting low again.

My understanding is the goal is to be around 26/28 NMOL/L after injection. But how low is too low in the trough?
What's the dose that you're injecting and how are you gauging being "low"?
Using a long ester test which is common for TRT, the half-life typically ranges from 7-10 days depending on the ester. And there are some that are longer as well. Sure you can inject EOD, but it shouldn't be necessary on TRT.

My first thoughts here are either a) your initial dose is too high causing large peaks or b) you're not really low but it's more of a placebo effect knowing you haven't taken a shot in 5 days and you're used to the feeling of being on cycle.

Ultimately, blood work comparison is what would be needed to give proper advice.
 
I can't see your levels fluctuating between 12 and 24, that's huge. As for feel, I concur with @IronRobi, and your single dose is too high, giving you that spike, but then as that subsides you feel a low.

As that seems to be what you're experiencing, try 2 shots/wk. I believe you'll feel much better. I could never manage 1 shot per week, but 2 work very well. As for numbers, I've had plenty of regular bloodwork and never noticed a difference between 24nmol and 33nmol. FT is a far better indicator of where I feel 'good, but it too has varied between 450 and 660, and I can honestly say that when it was around 500 I never noticed a difference from when it was 650. The only time I really notice anything is when my E2 increases, which is why I don't inject once/week.

How much are you injecting?

My last edit was to insert and underline 'never.' It somehow got omitted while I was typing. Overall, I find consistency is best. If you're taking higher dosages, then AI consistency is best, otherwise you're going to feel like crap.
 
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Feel great after injection, but after about 5 days I can definitely feel it getting low again.

My understanding is the goal is to be around 26/28 NMOL/L after injection. But how low is too low in the trough?
Priorities here IMO:

#1 - how do you feel

That's a bit of a joke I guess but my point is there is no "normal".
Treat the symptoms, don't chase the numbers.
Of course the reality of the situation leads us to want to find the numbers and other info like doses and frequencies that are associated with how we feel so we can use them to treat the symptoms :)

Detailed note taking combined with a few sets of labs will get you there, experience will guide you after that.

ie if a bloodtest that shows 500ng/dl seems to coincide with when you feel the best then you can build a protocol to suit.

That's in a perfect world of course where you have the means to do all that. I don't recall seeing how much you are taking for TRT but regardless for now the easiest thing would be to go to 2x a week as the others have suggested.

I also agree with @IronRobi that it may just be in your mind, which you may either prove or disprove eventually with bloodwork. He and I do disagree about half lives of esters but that convo has been done to death. For your future knowledge it's probably a good idea to read up on that and make up your own mind. Either way doesn't change any of the responses here to a significant degree.
 
Priorities here IMO:

#1 - how do you feel

That's a bit of a joke I guess but my point is there is no "normal".
Treat the symptoms, don't chase the numbers.
Of course the reality of the situation leads us to want to find the numbers and other info like doses and frequencies that are associated with how we feel so we can use them to treat the symptoms :)

Detailed note taking combined with a few sets of labs will get you there, experience will guide you after that.

ie if a bloodtest that shows 500ng/dl seems to coincide with when you feel the best then you can build a protocol to suit.

That's in a perfect world of course where you have the means to do all that. I don't recall seeing how much you are taking for TRT but regardless for now the easiest thing would be to go to 2x a week as the others have suggested.

I also agree with @IronRobi that it may just be in your mind, which you may either prove or disprove eventually with bloodwork. He and I do disagree about half lives of esters but that convo has been done to death. For your future knowledge it's probably a good idea to read up on that and make up your own mind. Either way doesn't change any of the responses here to a significant degree.
second these statements, I could give a F what the number says but if I have morning erections, feel like I'm 18 in the bedroom, and have good energy I don't care what the number is. That being said, I did blood work mulitple times, 2 days after my once a week shot and on the 6th day approx.
I was just over the high end of normal or high normal 2 days after and in the middle around 6 days. Some people prefer it to be more consistent but I don't care. I'm still gaining in the gym department and I'm not 20 and I feel good, the latter being the most important.

That is being on test only. When I add in 100 mg of Primo my regular test is the same but my free test is much higher than normal which is good in my books. I use test enanthate and always have because I know how long it is in my system, how long it takes to clear, etc. Just a preference but as previously mentioned you can get testosterone with very long half lives (undecanate).
 
how many MG/week?
If it’s prop 123 mg
Test e 125 mg

I compared the test e UGL against a vial of pharma I had and it came out the same.
Now we all process different.
But here was my results.
I also draw the morning of the injection.
Sorry I was wrong 23 seems to be my lowest.
I feel great on this dose.
 

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What's the dose that you're injecting and how are you gauging being "low"?
Using a long ester test which is common for TRT, the half-life typically ranges from 7-10 days depending on the ester. And there are some that are longer as well. Sure you can inject EOD, but it shouldn't be necessary on TRT.

My first thoughts here are either a) your initial dose is too high causing large peaks or b) you're not really low but it's more of a placebo effect knowing you haven't taken a shot in 5 days and you're used to the feeling of being on cycle.

Ultimately, blood work comparison is what would be needed to give proper advice.
This is something that ive wondered. That despite the stated release time based on ester weight ie: Enth say7-10 days, how does ones SHBG factor into what something was supposed to breakdown and release at.... vs how fast our bodies hold onto the hormone and how fast we metabolize it? So if we inject and the release time is 7-10 days but have single digit SHBG, do we burn through that whole shot was quicker than 7-10 days or no the testosterone will still release the same, just when its available to the body, the body burns through it as fast as its given and is never a slow steady release?


Thoughts on that if you can follow my rambling lol
 
This is something that ive wondered. That despite the stated release time based on ester weight ie: Enth say7-10 days, how does ones SHBG factor into what something was supposed to breakdown and release at.... vs how fast our bodies hold onto the hormone and how fast we metabolize it? So if we inject and the release time is 7-10 days but have single digit SHBG, do we burn through that whole shot was quicker than 7-10 days or no the testosterone will still release the same, just when its available to the body, the body burns through it as fast as its given and is never a slow steady release?


Thoughts on that if you can follow my rambling lol
From what I've read, and from other's experiences on here it seems that people with low SHBG can manage well on a lower dose than someone with higher SHBG, which makes total sense when you consider that SHBG binds up test. Lower SHBG means that you will have greater amounts of FT floating around. It's not a matter that you 'burn' through a dose any faster. There are many factors that influence uptake, but you will have greater levels of FT floating around, which means greater potential for aromatization.

It is also my understanding that those with low SHBG are better suited to more frequent injections, as the more test floating around has the potential for more side effects.

I have higher SHBG, and at a certain point I cannot manage on a low dose. My cut off seems to be around 104mg. That is two shots of 52mg. Any lower and I feel like crap. I've also tried once/wk shots, and while I feel good by the time day 6 & 7 roll around I don't feel as great.

I would urge you to inject twice a week.

@Nixter has low SHBG, and would be someone who could give you insight from his experience.
 
My SHBG is around 24 IIRC. Not crazy low or anything though. I tend to have higher free T though obviously. I recently went down to 75-80mg/wk to see how I felt but it was too low. I felt off. I'm at 180 now, along with 150 Primo and liking it a lot.

I'm terms of injections frequency, I've only ever done 2 or 3 times per week and never noticed a difference between them.
 
From what I've read, and from other's experiences on here it seems that people with low SHBG can manage well on a lower dose than someone with higher SHBG, which makes total sense when you consider that SHBG binds up test. Lower SHBG means that you will have greater amounts of FT floating around. It's not a matter that you 'burn' through a dose any faster. There are many factors that influence uptake, but you will have greater levels of FT floating around, which means greater potential for aromatization.

It is also my understanding that those with low SHBG are better suited to more frequent injections, as the more test floating around has the potential for more side effects.

I have higher SHBG, and at a certain point I cannot manage on a low dose. My cut off seems to be around 104mg. That is two shots of 52mg. Any lower and I feel like crap. I've also tried once/wk shots, and while I feel good by the time day 6 & 7 roll around I don't feel as great.

I would urge you to inject twice a week.

@Nixter has low SHBG, and would be someone who could give you insight from his experience.

Ive done 1x wk, 2x, m.w.f, EOD & daily as my SHBG is 11-13 and last labs was 6...
Ive been at 100mg/wk, 120,140 & most recently up to 175mg/wk.
I tried 175 with divided daily and EOD.
They say with low SHBG that more frequent shots are best, but im starting to think its also more about the dose as well, like you mentioned its easy to get a higher free T with low SHBG, but at the same time equates a massive spillover into E2 as well.

I know there is an internet groups that preaches no Ai ever and E2 on labwork is irrelevant and the more E2 the better...
but as much as i want to believe that I didn't feel it worked for me. I felt extremely lethargic and held alot of water and was tough to breathe.
I took some light arimidex dosing and seemed to help a bit, but at that point on 175/wk i felt maybe the body needed a break as my free T has been around 868 pmol and i know thats not sky high at all, but over a duration it may not be great. They do have ranges for a reason and I did have a more T per week should mean better. I just cut back to 30mg EOD (approx 105mg/wk) about 2.5 weeks ago.
I do feel alot lighter and less lethargy and seem to have shed alot of bloat and water, but I also can tell the strength and endurance isnt as much either.

Im more about finding something I feel good at, have energy and a sex drive and erections, as all of that has sucked.
So my luck on trt has been hit or miss to say the least. Ive had great short lived spans but then only seems when changing dose up or down
 
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Ive done 1x wk, 2x, m.w.f, EOD & daily as my SHBG is 11-13 and last labs was 6...
Ive been at 100mg/wk, 120,140 & most recently up to 175mg/wk.
I tried 175 with divided daily and EOD.
They say with low SHBG that more frequent shots are best, but im starting to think its also more about the dose as well, like you mentioned its easy to get a higher free T with low SHBG, but at the same time equates a massive spillover into E2 as well.

I know there is an internet groups that preaches no Ai ever and E2 on labwork is irrelevant and the more E2 the better...
but as much as i want to believe that I didn't feel it worked for me. I felt extremely lethargic and held alot of water and was tough to breathe.
I took some light arimidex dosing and seemed to help a bit, but at that point on 175/wk i jfelt maybe the body needed a break as my free T has been around 868 pmol and i know thats not sky high at all, but over a duration it may not be great. They do have ranges for a reason and I did have a more should mean better. I just cut back to 30mg EOD for approx 105mg/wk about 2.5 weeks ago.
I do feel alot lighter and less lethargy and seem to shed alot of bloat and water, but I also can tell the strength and endurance isnt as much either.

Im more about finding something I feel good at, have energy and a sex drive and erections, as all of that has sucked.
So my luck on trt has been hot or miss to say the least. Ive had great short lived spans but then only seems when changing dose up or down
Shit, that's where my FT was on 140mg/wk. I'm pretty much where you are at with respect to EOD. I think 30mg would be a perfect dose. I always had to use an AI. My E2 bounces around as well, which makes it very challenging to obtain consistency. Like many others have stated, higher doses of test are better when you need an AI, and like many others I too have found most consistency with libido, energy, and mood at lower doses.

It won't take long and you will adjust to the lighter dose/lighter workouts.
 
My SHBG is around 24 IIRC. Not crazy low or anything though. I tend to have higher free T though obviously. I recently went down to 75-80mg/wk to see how I felt but it was too low. I felt off. I'm at 180 now, along with 150 Primo and liking it a lot.

I'm terms of injections frequency, I've only ever done 2 or 3 times per week and never noticed a difference between them.
That's quite the 180 from your low dose protocol (pun intended). Total cheese, I know, but it was the perfect setup.
 
My SHBG is around 24 IIRC. Not crazy low or anything though. I tend to have higher free T though obviously. I recently went down to 75-80mg/wk to see how I felt but it was too low. I felt off. I'm at 180 now, along with 150 Primo and liking it a lot.

I'm terms of injections frequency, I've only ever done 2 or 3 times per week and never noticed a difference between them.
I'm going bet primo will put your SHBG into single digits... it does for mine anyway!
 
Shit, that's where my FT was on 140mg/wk. I'm pretty much where you are at with respect to EOD. I think 30mg would be a perfect dose. I always had to use an AI. My E2 bounces around as well, which makes it very challenging to obtain consistency. Like many others have stated, higher doses of test are better when you need an AI, and like many others I too have found most consistency with libido, energy, and mood at lower doses.

It won't take long and you will adjust to the lighter dose/lighter workouts.
I do think Ive felt best with E2 based on labwork around the 80-90 pmol range.
I think back to when sex has been the best and the easiest erection wise and it correlates back to around those lab values.
Funny thing is my Free T was quite different on those labs (525 & 929 pmol) and it was my E2 that stayed similar (87 & 82 pmol).
So I do believe E2 needs to be in a certain range despite what this new trend is of E2 doesnt matter at all...

I read from a TRT Dr. in the UK where he did in fact state or reference to a study that showed that the penile tissue is high in estrogen receptors and if you saturate them, you can in fact desensitize them and the smooth tissue in the penis will not relax like its supposed to and therefore can cause ED. He also stated that the opposite is true if you do not have sufficient E2. That and he stated this effect is regardless to having all the T levels in the world more /less and that there is a range for E2 for a reason. That seemed to hit home and make complete sense to me. So he said many of his patients do better alot of time on less T once he can convince them and change there mentality of more is better. He was also a fan of micro dosing small daily T & HCG and micro doses of Aromasin only if required prepared by a compounding pharmacy. I tried to get on with him via Zoom, but he said he would have to meet face to face for the initial consolation to make it legit and there on after could do it remote no problem as he had many form out of country.

That being said for me with low SHBG, there isn't going to be a chance im getting mid - high range free T, and have E2 in a reasonable range without the use of some sort of control / aromatase inhibitor. The only thing left to try is go to 15mg T every day for 105mg/week and see how that goes. If I lower my T dose any more, I feel then thats starting to negate the point and benefits of being on TRT to feel well and restore some of the lost things.
 
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