Thinking about reducing my trt to my natural, pre trt levels

[resilient1]

Is there a need for ai at 125?

If you are one of the unlucky one's, yes. I still have to fuck around with an AI at 105mg. I feel better at 120mg, and I'm resigning myself to just accept that using an AI is going to be part of this journey. It sucks, but I have never been able to attain a balance without. Either my dosage is too low and I feel off, or I aromatize.

I recently tried doing an EOD protocol with prop, but I found I had to switch to daily shots, which is just too much of a hassle. When I returned to 52mg of test E every 3.5 my FT was 900 and my E2 was 150. It is what it is.

 

[gondar1]

If you are one of the unlucky one's, yes. I still have to fuck around with an AI at 105mg. I feel better at 120mg, and I'm resigning myself to just accept that using an AI is going to be part of this journey. It sucks, but I have never been able to attain a balance without. Either my dosage is too low and I feel off, or I aromatize.

I recently tried doing an EOD protocol with prop, but I found I had to switch to daily shots, which is just too much of a hassle. When I returned to 52mg of test E every 3.5 my FT was 900 and my E2 was 150. It is what it is.

Wow that is impressive. I rarely hear of anyone as sensitive as myself. For about the last 10years when I get to 125/week I have needed 12.5 mg Asin daily to keep it and gyno in check. Doesn't make it worth going over 115 often for me personally because Asin comes with it's own set of negatives.
I've not been doing anything substantial for the last couple of years due to injuries and fucking covid shutdowns and shit but judging strictly by feel it seems like I have actually gotten less sensitive to it lately. Just got a blood req from Dr as I've not done a full panel in a couple of years either. He put serum test on there but no other hormones, I asked about Estro but he said 'nah we've got that under control now anyways right?' So kinda left me stuck but I'm not gonna pay outside the system for bloods so it is what it is.
Gonna try some DHT stuff to hopefully mitigate E if I ever blast again. I've mostly gone low T and let other compounds do the work anyhow.

 

[resilient1]

Is there a need for ai at 125?

If you are one of the unlucky one's, yes. I still have to fuck around with an AI at 105mg. I feel better at 120mg, and I'm resigning myself to just accept that using an AI is going to be part of this journey. It sucks, but I have never been able to attain a balance without. Either my dosage is too low and I feel off, or I aromatize.

I recently tried doing an EOD protocol with prop, but I found I had to switch to daily shots, which is just too much of a hassle. When I returned to 52mg of test E every 3.5 my FT was 900 and my E2 was 150. I could manage use of an

Wow that is impressive. I rarely hear of anyone as sensitive as myself. For about the last 10years when I get to 125/week I have needed 12.5 mg Asin daily to keep it and gyno in check. Doesn't make it worth going over 115 often for me personally because Asin comes with it's own set of negatives.
I've not been doing anything substantial for the last couple of years due to injuries and fucking covid shutdowns and shit but judging strictly by feel it seems like I have actually gotten less sensitive to it lately. Just got a blood req from Dr as I've not done a full panel in a couple of years either. He put serum test on there but no other hormones, I asked about Estro but he said 'nah we've got that under control now anyways right?' So kinda left me stuck but I'm not gonna pay outside the system for bloods so it is what it is.
Gonna try some DHT stuff to hopefully mitigate E if I ever blast again. I've mostly gone low T and let other compounds do the work anyhow.

It's reassuring to hear that I'm not alone in this struggle. I'm likely going to get some primo or mast and alternate between the two. I hear you on the aromasin. It's a necessity, but when my E2 bounces around as erratically as it has of late it makes everything else additionally difficult. 12.5mg of asin/day would be brutal. At the most I was using 3.25mg/day at 130-140mg/day, but I'm betting I would now have to use more at that dose. I'll try 3 shots/week, 40, 30, 30, and see how that works.

Aromasin is a funny drug. When I use it infrequently it packs a punch, but the more I use it the more often I seem to have to use it. Perhaps some of that has to do with additional free testosterone floating after administration. My shbg is in the high 40s, so as it that's lowered I would have increasing amounts of FT available to aromatize.

As explained to me by a pharmacist, b/c aromasin is a suicide inhibitor the added FT just floats around waiting to be excreted, which is a slow process. I def feel a difference and see a difference after taking aromasin. It's a little spike in FT, which is a bump up from how I was feeling. It's like a momentary glimpse of how I would prefer to be feeling.

 

[gondar1]

If you are one of the unlucky one's, yes. I still have to fuck around with an AI at 105mg. I feel better at 120mg, and I'm resigning myself to just accept that using an AI is going to be part of this journey. It sucks, but I have never been able to attain a balance without. Either my dosage is too low and I feel off, or I aromatize.

I recently tried doing an EOD protocol with prop, but I found I had to switch to daily shots, which is just too much of a hassle. When I returned to 52mg of test E every 3.5 my FT was 900 and my E2 was 150. I could manage use of an

It's reassuring to hear that I'm not alone in this struggle. I'm likely going to get some primo or mast and alternate between the two. I hear you on the aromasin. It's a necessity, but when my E2 bounces around as erratically as it has of late it makes everything else additionally difficult. 12.5mg of asin/day would be brutal. At the most I was using 3.25mg/day at 130-140mg/day, but I'm betting I would now have to use more at that dose. I'll try 3 shots/week, 40, 30, 30, and see how that works.

Aromasin is a funny drug. When I use it infrequently it packs a punch, but the more I use it the more often I seem to have to use it. Perhaps some of that has to do with additional free testosterone floating after administration. My shbg is in the high 40s, so as it that's lowered I would have increasing amounts of FT available to aromatize.

As explained to me by a pharmacist, b/c aromasin is a suicide inhibitor the added FT just floats around waiting to be excreted, which is a slow process. I def feel a difference and see a difference after taking aromasin. It's a little spike in FT, which is a bump up from how I was feeling. It's like a momentary glimpse of how I would prefer to be feeling.

I think it may have been @Oldguyjiujitsu who noted an increase in FT on his bloods when using an AI, maybe aromasin. Not sure about this floating around waiting to be excreted thing though.

 

[Oldguyjiujitsu]

I think it may have been @Oldguyjiujitsu who noted an increase in FT on his bloods when using an AI, maybe aromasin. Not sure about this floating around waiting to be excreted thing though.

Yes its simple and consistent math for me. With adex or asin it lowers my SHGB and results in higher free test. Have done a bunch of BW and it’s consistently 30-35% increase in free test vs same out of test no ai.

That said i avoid ai as i am a high responder and on the Smallest of dosages it tanks my E2 and causes crazy insomnia with a few weeks.

Yes never heard of the floating around logic

Cheers


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[resilient1]

Yes its simple and consistent math for me. With adex or asin it lowers my SHGB and results in higher free test. Have done a bunch of BW and it’s consistently 30-35% increase in free test vs same out of test no ai.

That said i avoid ai as i am a high responder and on the Smallest of dosages it tanks my E2 and causes crazy insomnia with a few weeks.

Yes never heard of the floating around logic

Cheers


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I should have explained it more fully. His explanation was when you eliminate aromatase the resulting FT can not be aromatized, which leaves it remaining in your system. The only way it is then removed is through urine or feces.

If you lower aromatase significantly enough, and for long enough, there is no other means for the body to reduce FT levels. He explained that it isn't until the body has been able to produce aromatase that it will be able to attempt to balance/lower that FT level.

I relate to being an over-responder. I do my best to take care when I use it.

 

[gondar1]

I should have explained it more fully. His explanation was when you eliminate aromatase the resulting FT can not be aromatized, which leaves it remaining in your system. The only way it is then removed is through urine or feces.

If you lower aromatase significantly enough, and for long enough, there is no other means for the body to reduce FT levels. He explained that it isn't until the body has been able to produce aromatase that it will be able to attempt to balance/lower that FT level.

I relate to being an over-responder. I do my best to take care when I use it.

EDIT - y'all might want to skip this one, I got ramblin again

Thanks but I still don't get . I know you are just relaying what you were told, not trying to hold you accountable but I will explain the part I can't get past and maybe someone has some insight.

I don't understand why this would be any different than it would be for someone who has a naturally occouring higher level of FT than someone else disregarding any drug use. Maybe it is not. I guess the question(s) that should be answered first would be is there a limit to how much FT your body can utilize and if their is then what becomes of the excess?

Please note as I've said I have not looked into this very deeply, mostly because up until relatively recently I've not worried too much about FT levels and directed most of my attention towards Total T. That being based on the preponderance of medical literature indicating that not much can be done to change FT levels. More recently this has been majorly questioned as well as we are discussing here.

However please allow me to speculate.

What I believe or have come to understand at least is that the answer to my question above is not a solid yes or no. Sort of a moving goal post situation. When your system finds an amount of FT over the amount it can currently handle it adapts so that it can handle it. Satellite cell proliferation and increased receptor capacity and sensitivity are suggested mechanisms of adaptation. If the FT level then drops your system dials itself down but you keep the new found abilities and satellite cells. These ideas are expressed in a more simple fashion when we talk about how quickly you can get it back after a layoff, how once you do a cycle you can never claim natty status again and even oldman strength.

Honestly this may well be as far as I'll ever look into the subject other than if someone does a nice easy reading writeup about it. It would probably take me a week of reading just to get back up to speed on the subject enough to start to be able to even understand a lot of the language needed to absorb anything new. Getting old, got to manage the time I have left with a nod towards balance in my life.

 

[resilient1]

EDIT - y'all might want to skip this one, I got ramblin again

Thanks but I still don't get . I know you are just relaying what you were told, not trying to hold you accountable but I will explain the part I can't get past and maybe someone has some insight.

I don't understand why this would be any different than it would be for someone who has a naturally occouring higher level of FT than someone else disregarding any drug use. Maybe it is not. I guess the question(s) that should be answered first would be is there a limit to how much FT your body can utilize and if their is then what becomes of the excess?

Please note as I've said I have not looked into this very deeply, mostly because up until relatively recently I've not worried too much about FT levels and directed most of my attention towards Total T. That being based on the preponderance of medical literature indicating that not much can be done to change FT levels. More recently this has been majorly questioned as well as we are discussing here.

However please allow me to speculate.

What I believe or have come to understand at least is that the answer to my question above is not a solid yes or no. Sort of a moving goal post situation. When your system finds an amount of FT over the amount it can currently handle it adapts so that it can handle it. Satellite cell proliferation and increased receptor capacity and sensitivity are suggested mechanisms of adaptation. If the FT level then drops your system dials itself down but you keep the new found abilities and satellite cells. These ideas are expressed in a more simple fashion when we talk about how quickly you can get it back after a layoff, how once you do a cycle you can never claim natty status again and even oldman strength.

Honestly this may well be as far as I'll ever look into the subject other than if someone does a nice easy reading writeup about it. It would probably take me a week of reading just to get back up to speed on the subject enough to start to be able to even understand a lot of the language needed to absorb anything new. Getting old, got to manage the time I have left with a nod towards balance in my life.

As I ended up misinterpreting what was a flare up of my back for high E2 I only slept about 5 hours, so I'm not going to attempt to delve into this too deeply. The one question I have is why focus on TT? My endo regards TT as unreliable mainly b/c FT is what is left unattached to albumin and shbg. I admit that I mostly focus on FT b/c that is what my endo focuses upon, but it seems that FT is the measure by which men are evaluated when considered for trt. One last mention, I've had TT at or near a certain level whereas my FT varied considerably.

A very general explanation is more than sufficient.

 

[gondar1]

As I ended up misinterpreting what was a flare up of my back for high E2 I only slept about 5 hours, so I'm not going to attempt to delve into this too deeply. The one question I have is why focus on TT? My endo regards TT as unreliable mainly b/c FT is what is left unattached to albumin and shbg. I admit that I mostly focus on FT b/c that is what my endo focuses upon, but it seems that FT is the measure by which men are evaluated when considered for trt. One last mention, I've had TT at or near a certain level whereas my FT varied considerably.

A very general explanation is more than sufficient.

IME...
Maybe it boils down to dogma.
Relatively new approach, historically, to focus on FT over TT, many including my practitioner still only consider TT and won't even look at FT. That includes all three dept head Endos I have seen.
Reasons for this are mainly FT thought to be hard to influence either way and also hard to measure accurately because it is such a small component of the total. The measuring difficulties may be the reason you see your results vary as well as the "just a picture of a moment in time" factor which usually varies much less with TT.
Advancements in science have recently nullified all that somewhat but changes take time.

EDIT - please note as I've said all three of those Endo's were seriously suspect in my eyes, had to explain 1/2 lives and why every 2 weeks shots were no good to one of them for example

 

[backintime]

To the OP:

I tried to read through the whole thread with as much focus as I could. Lol.

I wonder, just thinking outside the box... It seems you've tried almost everything here to get that decent consistent higher libido back, and it seems like an important issue to you and your lady. Don't blame anyone on that at all, not a bit. Totally understandable.

Seems you've put a lot of thought into all this and tried different things, and different testing.

The thing that stood out to me though was when you said you'd be happy with pre-TRT level libido. So, as odd an unfortunate in some ways of a decision it would be, have you thought about going natty again?

I mean, you've been on a bit, but maybe, just maybe you could recover back to your previous levels, or realistically maybe close? Maybe being natural again would be exactly what your system needs to get that libido or near to it back? Nothing else has worked. It'd be a bumpy road at first and I'm sure not what anyone here would ideally choose (not being able to try gear again) but, I'm just trying to think outside the box. Where you said pre-trt you didnt really have an issue with libido, maybe that's your ticket. Many, if not most guys who switch to trt say beforehand their libido was shit, so for them I wouldn't see how logically this could work, but where yours was good, maybe it'd work for you?

Just totally thinking out loud. Hope whatever route you take it gets sorted out sometime soon brother.

 

[Nixter]

To the OP:

I tried to read through the whole thread with as much focus as I could. Lol.

I wonder, just thinking outside the box... It seems you've tried almost everything here to get that decent consistent higher libido back, and it seems like an important issue to you and your lady. Don't blame anyone on that at all, not a bit. Totally understandable.

Seems you've put a lot of thought into all this and tried different things, and different testing.

The thing that stood out to me though was when you said you'd be happy with pre-TRT level libido. So, as odd an unfortunate in some ways of a decision it would be, have you thought about going natty again?

I mean, you've been on a bit, but maybe, just maybe you could recover back to your previous levels, or realistically maybe close? Maybe being natural again would be exactly what your system needs to get that libido or near to it back? Nothing else has worked. It'd be a bumpy road at first and I'm sure not what anyone here would ideally choose (not being able to try gear again) but, I'm just trying to think outside the box. Where you said pre-trt you didnt really have an issue with libido, maybe that's your ticket. Many, if not most guys who switch to trt say beforehand their libido was shit, so for them I wouldn't see how logically this could work, but where yours was good, maybe it'd work for you?

Just totally thinking out loud. Hope whatever route you take it gets sorted out sometime soon brother.

Oh yes, that option has been burning a hole in my brain for some time now.

 

[Duffx5]

Ok, I think this experiment is done. Im a couple days short of 8 weeks at 80mg. The main goal was to address libido and that hasn't improved, if anything it's maybe a bit worse. I have enjoyed the reduced water retention in my face at this dose but that's about it. The lower BP numbers are nice too.

I'm currently with a woman I love very much and my shit libido is now a problem that she's brought up. She's very supportive and knows "it's not her", though part of her cant help but think that way, which is totally understandable. I'm kind of at a loss for what to do. I think I have to face the potential fact that my libido issue is at least partially psychological as I can still get things going solo. Though I do have low sensitivity which is very real and wasn't so much a problem at other dosages. It takes me a while and lots of focus. Anxiety creates low libido, which creates anxiety, rinse, repeat. Lame.

Ok, enough of my problems.

My blood work over the last 4 years hasnt shown anything particularly out of whack. E2, SHBG, DHT, protlactin, T3, T4, etc. etc. No major red flags for libido or ED. Tried all sorts of dosages with and without HCG. Tried Mast as as part of a blast and didnt feel any extra kick, though I was running it with deca. Recently tried 75mg proviron, nada. I am on 1.25mg finasteride but the libido issues predated the fina. Regardless, I'm going to drop it for now, just in case.

I've looked through my logs over the last 4 years and the best wood was a couple weeks into lowering my dose from 200 to 120. I know that might be due to the transition in dose and not the dose itself but it's all I've got to try. So, 175/wk it is. I want to throw in this primo i have sitting around as well (300/wk for 16wks). If you think i should run a different test number with this, let me know, (300/300?) Maybe after this I just come off everything completely. My libido was ok before TRT and when i first got on, but seems to have progressively gotten worse over time. I would take my pre trt libido levels over my current situation for sure.

Thanks everyone

I had some problems with erections when I was with a woman. Although it required some will power quitting masturbation and pornography cured the problem.

masturbation by hand can reduce sensitivity. Also Pornography trains your brain away from what sex is really like when your with a real woman.

 

[aGuyFromWinnipeg]

I had some problems with erections when I was with a woman. Although it required some will power quitting masturbation and pornography cured the problem.

masturbation by hand can reduce sensitivity. Also Pornography trains your brain away from what sex is really like when your with a real woman.

Are you suggesting real women don't like it finished on their face? This could explain why I never get called back.

(seriously tho, I agree)

 

[aGuyFromWinnipeg]

Wow that is impressive. I rarely hear of anyone as sensitive as myself. For about the last 10years when I get to 125/week I have needed 12.5 mg Asin daily to keep it and gyno in check. Doesn't make it worth going over 115 often for me personally because Asin comes with it's own set of negatives.
I've not been doing anything substantial for the last couple of years due to injuries and fucking covid shutdowns and shit but judging strictly by feel it seems like I have actually gotten less sensitive to it lately. Just got a blood req from Dr as I've not done a full panel in a couple of years either. He put serum test on there but no other hormones, I asked about Estro but he said 'nah we've got that under control now anyways right?' So kinda left me stuck but I'm not gonna pay outside the system for bloods so it is what it is.
Gonna try some DHT stuff to hopefully mitigate E if I ever blast again. I've mostly gone low T and let other compounds do the work anyhow.

Have you ever tried Nolvadex for Gyno? Been reading some studies that show it has the potential to reverse breast tissue developement, and "cure" Gyno. The study also showed that Arimidex / Aromasin had no effect other than slowing the process. This is more of a learning question for myself, rather than me trying to teach you something. I've been experiencing sore nips lately so thought I would give it a try.

 

[resilient1]

Have you ever tried Nolvadex for Gyno? Been reading some studies that show it has the potential to reverse breast tissue developement, and "cure" Gyno. The study also showed that Arimidex / Aromasin had no effect other than slowing the process. This is more of a learning question for myself, rather than me trying to teach you something. I've been experiencing sore nips lately so thought I would give it a try.

Raloxifene, a next gen SERM, is far better. It worked great for me, however, I had terrible brain fog. Most people tolerate it just fine, and if I were you I would go that route. When I say it works what I mean is you will feel a dull aching in your chest as gyno is reduced. Many guys here swear by Ralox. I got mine through my endo, but Genetec provides a quality product.

Nolva will also work, but it takes a lot more, and from everything I've read it's not as effective. If your nipples are sore then you need to adjust your AI, but you can add in Ralox/Nolva to prevent estrogen from binding to those receptors. If you have any lumps/firm tissue, then you would benefit more from Ralox, but you still need to take an AI as it does not affect levels of E2.

 

[gondar1]

Have you ever tried Nolvadex for Gyno? Been reading some studies that show it has the potential to reverse breast tissue developement, and "cure" Gyno. The study also showed that Arimidex / Aromasin had no effect other than slowing the process. This is more of a learning question for myself, rather than me trying to teach you something. I've been experiencing sore nips lately so thought I would give it a try.

Yes, used lots before I found Ralox. Never had conclusive results. Felt like it was somewhat effective for prevention and worsening but not much in the way of reversal. Was hard to judge, have had some small permanent hard lumps since puberty which are not very noticeable except with certain positions and/or lighting. Shit gets inflamed and fucking painful when stimulated by AAS and long bouts of flare up even without drugs. Dosed Nolva in desperation even if unsure how much it was helping.

Ralox actually reversed it, can actually feel the permanent nodules are tiny now. Right now I am smallest muscle wise I've been since about 16 and probably 14% BF and you would call me a liar or stupid if I claimed gyno. Mine is mammograph confirmed, almost got the surgery bailed at literally the last minute of second pre-surgery consult after getting on Ralox, never went back. Your Mileage May Vary.

Perfect post by @resilient1 above.

 

[aGuyFromWinnipeg]

Raloxifene, a next gen SERM, is far better. It worked great for me, however, I had terrible brain fog. Most people tolerate it just fine, and if I were you I would go that route. When I say it works what I mean is you will feel a dull aching in your chest as gyno is reduced. Many guys here swear by Ralox. I got mine through my endo, but Genetec provides a quality product.

Nolva will also work, but it takes a lot more, and from everything I've read it's not as effective. If your nipples are sore then you need to adjust your AI, but you can add in Ralox/Nolva to prevent estrogen from binding to those receptors. If you have any lumps/firm tissue, then you would benefit more from Ralox, but you still need to take an AI as it does not affect levels of E2.

Yes, used lots before I found Ralox. Never had conclusive results. Felt like it was somewhat effective for prevention and worsening but not much in the way of reversal. Was hard to judge, have had some small permanent hard lumps since puberty which are not very noticeable except with certain positions and/or lighting. Shit gets inflamed and fucking painful when stimulated by AAS and long bouts of flare up even without drugs. Dosed Nolva in desperation even if unsure how much it was helping.

Ralox actually reversed it, can actually feel the permanent nodules are tiny now. Right now I am smallest muscle wise I've been since about 16 and probably 14% BF and you would call me a liar or stupid if I claimed gyno. Mine is mammograph confirmed, almost got the surgery bailed at literally the last minute of second pre-surgery consult after getting on Ralox, never went back. Your Mileage May Vary.

Perfect post by @resilient1 above.

Awesome.. thanks for both posts. I'll look into it.

 

[Nixter]

Ralox has worked very well for my mild gyno that I've had since puberty.

 

[aGuyFromWinnipeg]

Ralox has worked very well for my mild gyno that I've had since puberty.

Do you mind telling me what you dosed at? length of cycle and how many times a year you've had to revisit? thanks man.

 

[Nixter]

I did a week of 90mg and then 60 after that for the remainder. I checked my logs but I don't seem to have entered my end date for the Ralox unfortunately.