How to adjust your AI

Sorbate said:
Like I stated above, likely the steady test levels, likely why out hemocrit levels increase as well, but don't if you are natural. Even if you are trying to be within real hrt doses.

Off topic, but I bet if you used test base, multiple times a day, or prop eod you would likely find your estrogen or hemocrit wouldn't raise in the same way.
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So in theory if we used a long ester test and pinned every 10 or 14 days instead of twice weekly or even e7d you would get the same results as if using prop eod?

I've read all your posts on us being too obsessed with stable blood levels, I think you're onto something here..
 
gondar1 said:
I'm a math dummy myself.

It all boils down to the equation -
Equation - ODW X e/g = NDW

You already know your ODW (old dose per week in mg) and e (bloodwork tested Estro level in pg/ml).
You must decide on your goal Estro level and then work the math to figure out what the NDW (new dose per week in mg) should be to achieve that level.

We are trying to solve for NDW.
Grab a scrap of paper and take your time, go to the OP and carefully sub in the numerical values for ODW times (e divided by g)

I hope someone will post up a real life example that they have worked out
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JUst looking at this, I feel my dyslexia on high gear!
 
Oldguyjiujitsu said:
Interesting thought... to support your theory Stan Efferding says he uses Test Prop M/W/F for his TRT (300mg week LOL TRT) because he finds his E2 is lower with prop and he just feels better.

Once i finish the little experiment i just started...i plan to use my script Test C at 100mg per week (twice per week) but put 50-100mg test prop (3 times per week) on top of it. It will be comparing how i feel with test C vs test C and prop. @gondar1 not sure this would qualify as doubling down, using two esters of test. What intrigues me here is that common theory would suggest that the spikes due to prop would create higher conversion to E2, etc but you and Stan hypothesize the opposite. Well i will get bloods along the way and we will know for sure. I was going to do it to test mood, energy, etc but now i have another E2 experiment as well.

One other note, i like feeling stable day to day but if i am stable for too many weeks i don't feel as good as when i change things up every 8 - 12 weeks. Even if its little tiny change like going from 90mg week to 110mg per week (no ai)...it just enough to get the hormones moving around and create a positive effect.
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I don’t know how many broscience tines I have heard that people feel less bloated on prop vs the same amount of test e. I bet the reduction in bloat is a reduction in estrogen.

I knkw when I was running the true hrt by Prosum, I was tighter less bloat. I only inject twice a week and it a mix of prop and iso prop with a bit of mast. I thought it might have been the mast, but in hindsight maybe I converted less test to estrogen.
 
faller said:
So in theory if we used a long ester test and pinned every 10 or 14 days instead of twice weekly or even e7d you would get the same results as if using prop eod?

I've read all your posts on us being too obsessed with stable blood levels, I think you're onto something here..
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Nope.
Long ester test even over 10-14 days would still have your test levels steady enough at a higher dose towards the start to still allow longer estrigen conversion. So right afterinjection for a few days high, then you’d drop down to almost nothing at the end. Oh that would suck as well, lol.

My thought is estrogen conversion takes time, you need the test in and out fast, so at min prop or iso prop,.
Prop eod would likely work best.

Remember this is just a theory. But I look at the human body as a control that has a large variance. The control variance is fairly loose as we evolved, other process became ‘loose’ as well.

So for example test gets high, body tries hard to convert to estrogen because it knows test will be gone, but only so much converts because enzyme action sucks and is slow.

But keep test levels higher (well over the feedback point) all the time, body screams to convert like crazy, thinking thru evolution test will drop again, but it doesnt so we convert too much. Now the enzyme action has enough time.
Now here the kicker to my theory, everyone has a feedback point, likeky at different levels, so 200 mg for me I grow boobs, but you don’t.

The more I think about our body and hormones the more I realize how inefficient we are, in compared to digital controls used to run equipment.

Even the process to signal our balls to produce estrogen is so delayed that we get wild swings of test levels. There is a certain amount of over shoot and undershoot.

Thing is what is chasing what? Is estrogen conversion chasing test levels? Or is there another mechanism.

I’m gojng to assume for my theory it chases test levels, a breakover part it achieved and it starts to convert.

Now as we get older, maybe our receptors are wearing out, so the body compensates because it has a harder time keeping the variance within ‘specs’ so it overshoots and converts more test into estrogen.

Lol, fuck I don’t know, but sometimes I lay awake a night thinking of this stupid shit.
 
Just something to note
Pg/ml is usually the American unit, I’ve been told 20pg/ml is an ideal amount of estrogen to have (not sure to be honest)
But Canadian, at least in Ontario by Dynacare used pmol/l for estradiol (regular, not sure about sensitive)
20pg/ml is about 70pmol/l

Although I could be completely wrong about this


Also I just noticed dynacare has estrogen sensitive tests. My doctor completely lied to me and said they didn’t. I read the regular estrogen test isn’t accurate and can be off by a fair amount and estrogen sensitive tests are far more accurate. Although I have no clue if that’s true either
 
Rocky said:
Just something to note
Pg/ml is usually the American unit, I’ve been told 20pg/ml is an ideal amount of estrogen to have (not sure to be honest)
But Canadian, at least in Ontario by Dynacare used pmol/l for estradiol (regular, not sure about sensitive)
20pg/ml is about 70pmol/l

Although I could be completely wrong about this


Also I just noticed dynacare has estrogen sensitive tests. My doctor completely lied to me and said they didn’t. I read the regular estrogen test isn’t accurate and can be off by a fair amount and estrogen sensitive tests are far more accurate. Although I have no clue if that’s true either
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My thoughts from OP - "I prefer to keep E2 at between 20-30 pg/ml, tons of science and personal as well as anecdotal results to support that, do some reading and make up your own mind. "

There is a converter for units of measure linked in the OP.

Great point about the sensitive test, I have added that to the OP.
 
gondar1 said:
Many assumptions made here.
Works for Adex,and Asin, I assume it works for other AI.
Formula assumes that the only change will be AI protocol and all other factors will remain constant.
I prefer to keep E2 at between 20-30 pg/ml, tons of science and personal as well as anecdotal results to support that, do some reading and make up your own mind.
Great thread here with various opinions and links - https://canadianbrawn.com/threads/some-trt-experiments-and-learnings.650/
Get Bloods. **Get the Sensitive Assay Test if at all possible, far more accurate** If you are happy with E level then carry on as you have, if not apply the formula and retest.
If your BW is showing different units of measure you must convert them all to the exact ones used in the formula, here is one if it does notmatch use google to find another - http://www.endmemo.com/medical/unitconvert/Estradiol.php
I recommend BW been done at the trough of a 2 times per week injection schedule.

If you are not a math guy (I'm not) just take your time and carefully fill in the blanks. Often the answer you get will result in a tricky number that is not easy to mange perfectly in real life so some decisions need to be made. For example if you decide you need to take 2.6g/week (or 0.37/day) and that is hard to dose consider running with 0.75/EOD as the total is nearly the same per week. Or change to a different dosing sched like m/w/f if that gets you to where you need to be with simpler (physically) dosing. Run the numbers forwards and back everytime you make a change.

I will edit this post to add more tidbits as they come to mind. I'd suggest re-reading this OP every once in a while if this becomes a long thread as I will not be noting the edits. At least read it before you embark on the math journey for yourself.

Methodology and examples below....


From your BW with E2=Y as the result and E2=22 the goal, new dose would be old_dose x Y/22

“with E2= (e) as the result and E2=22 (g) the goal, new dose/week (NDW) would be old_dose (ODW) x e/22 “

Tested E2 in pg/ml = e

Goal E2 = g

Original Arimidex dose/week = ODW

Equation - ODW X e/g = NDW

Example;

Jonny Rockhard is running Xmg of TE and 250 HCG 3x/week with 1.29mg Arimidex/week (0.37 EOD) and his BW comes back at 30 his goal is 22.

ODW X e/g = NDW

1.29 x 30/22 = 1.75

This says that if everything else stays the same and JR adjusts his weekly dosage of Arimidex to 1.75mg/week(0.5/EOD) his expected future E2 level would be 22pg/ml
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My gp refuses to do e2 check is there another avenue.
 
With my e2 of 77, I'm supposed to be taking 3.5mg arimidex eod. Wouldn't this be a crazy high dose? I'm currently on 800mg test C and 1mg adex every week.
 
Hades_101 said:
With my e2 of 77, I'm supposed to be taking 3.5mg arimidex eod. Wouldn't this be a crazy high dose? I'm currently on 800mg test C and 1mg adex every week.
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just logged on but can't stay long, show your math if you can, maybe some mistake happening...
 
Also I posted my blood test results here if you have the time to take a look. I might have made a mistake honestly, as this is my first time doing this.

www.canadianbrawn.com

Blood test results. I am currently suffering from ED. Can any of these be the factor?

I am currently on a blast of 800mg TEST c a week, devided into two doses of 400mg injections every third and fourth day of the week. At the time of injections, I take 0.5mg ADEX. Before this, I was taking proviron as well for a couple weeks before I stopped due to acne. My erectile health is...
www.canadianbrawn.com www.canadianbrawn.com
 
Hades_101 said:
So my weekly dose X my estrogen level x 22

So

1 x 77 x 22 = 3.5

Sound right?
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ermm, no :)

ODW X e/g = NDW
1 x 77/22 = 3.5 so same answer yes but how you show the math is not correct that's all.

3.5 is the NDW (New Dose Weekly) - you said "3.5 eod" in you first post, that would be 36.75/week which would be a VERY high dose.

So 3.5/week is 1mg eod. Is that a high dose you may ask? It's all individual at cycle doses of say 200+/week T I personally need 1mg per each 100mg of Test - 700mg T I need 7mg of Adex (1mg/day)

Those types of ratios inevitably fall off the curve at the lower and higher ends btw. For example at 100mg T/week I need no AI, If I was on 1400 T/week I would bet I wouldn't need 14mg of Adex either. I wouldn't do it if I needed that much, there is a limit for various reasons. I use Aromasin almost all the time now anyhow, Adex only very short term if there is a gyno emergency.

I personally feel that 3.5mg Adex usually won't be a problem for most.
 
Thank you alotnkan
gondar1 said:
ermm, no :)

ODW X e/g = NDW
1 x 77/22 = 3.5 so same answer yes but how you show the math is not correct that's all.

3.5 is the NDW (New Dose Weekly) - you said "3.5 eod" in you first post, that would be 36.75/week which would be a VERY high dose.

So 3.5/week is 1mg eod. Is that a high dose you may ask? It's all individual at cycle doses of say 200+/week T I personally need 1mg per each 100mg of Test - 700mg T I need 7mg of Adex (1mg/day)

Those types of ratios inevitably fall off the curve at the lower and higher ends btw. For example at 100mg T/week I need no AI, If I was on 1400 T/week I would bet I wouldn't need 14mg of Adex either. I wouldn't do it if I needed that much, there is a limit for various reasons. I use Aromasin almost all the time now anyhow, Adex only very short term if there is a gyno emergency.

I personally feel that 3.5mg Adex usually won't be a problem for most.
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Thanks alot man. That explains alot. Also how come you prefer aromasin instead of adex?
 
Hades_101 said:
Thank you alotnkan

Thanks alot man. That explains alot. Also how come you prefer aromasin instead of adex?
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real short on time now so TLDR - Easier on the lipid profile and works through an entirely different action that I prefer. there are threads here that explain the differences between the two, probably in the profiles are simple explanations.
Gotta go but will be back late tonight, please continue any further discussion in your other thread as it's usually preferred to leave a sticky thread clean.

Cheers
 
I have always just gone by feel for estrogen control. I have done bloodwork and always comes back in the range I felt like I was in.

There is a lot of variance from person to person and from lab to lab in how strong their AIs are so having a mathematical formula is kinda just a starting point and you'd still need to adjust based on feel (or bloodwork) from there.

Like others I have found that I prefer Aromasin; Adex seems to work ok with smaller doses of gear for me but as soon as I get up above about 300mg/w test (or other aromatizing compounds) it doesn't do the job even at 1mg/d.

You can over do it with Aromasin though and crash your estrogen which takes weeks to recover (where you feel like shit, no sex drive, and joints all hurt). Better than gyno but still not awesome.

My algorithm:

If I am looking bloated and feeling lethargic - I increase my dose.

If my joints are hurting or feeling shitty when working out - I decrease my dose.

My sweet spot is about 25mg Aromasin every 2-3 days when on a heavy cycle (heavy for me is 400-800mg/w total, not much compared to some other guys but it does the job). If I am up at the high end of that range with aromatizing compounds I might go as high as 25mg Aromasin/d.

Not really an exact science but it seems to work for me.
 
flexappeal said:
Lots of guys on TRT require an AI to keep estrogen in check.
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I'm 61 on TRT (100mgs wkly) of T cypionate.I prefer 125-150 mgs but blackheads etc become a problem.What AI would help me.I am new to this forum and any help would be appreciated
 
For me personally if I was to run an AI it would be Aromasin and to really be able to dial things in you would need bloodwork. Also I'm not sure how everyone else feels but I believe acne is a result of estrogen imbalance.
 
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